Will we stop commercial flying?

Apophis

Resident Iconoclast
I suppose we could always task the medical professionals to make a best-educated determination of cause of death and do the official reports instead of having news reporters do it. Wonder if any countries have thought about doing it that way?
It would especially useful in Italy, where a huge portion of older people there smoke and thus have compromised lung function to begin with.

But that doesn’t generate clicks. You know what does though?

ITALY BODY COUNT DOUBLES OVERNIGHT11111!1!1!1!1!!!1!1!1!1
 

NovemberEcho

Dergs favorite member
I mean sure I get your point I was more talking about it being one of the initial tech schools
but it’s not any more than any other base is. Tech school for ATC is at Keesler AFB where you do book work and sims. Then you go to your first assignment. Mine was Tyndall AFB where I talked to my first real plane. There is no “training base” that you go to to talk to real planes. You gradiate Keesler and go to your unit to do on the job training. Shepherd had no more brand new trainees than anywhere else.

just like the FAA there’s brand new trainees straight from OKC at almost every facility. All the lower level towers, all the centers, even N90 get trainees that have never talked to a plane before.
 

SteveC

Really?
Staff member
It would especially useful in Italy, where a huge portion of older people there smoke and thus have compromised lung function to begin with.

But that doesn’t generate clicks. You know what does though?

ITALY BODY COUNT DOUBLES OVERNIGHT11111!1!1!1!1!!!1!1!1!1
People are right, I should use the sarcasm tag more often.

who do you believe generates the ”body count” information, including cause-of-death?
 

Apophis

Resident Iconoclast
People are right, I should use the sarcasm tag more often.

who do you believe generates the ”body count” information, including cause-of-death?
That isn’t the point. I’m asking you if you know the people who have died and specifically, their medical history. Without knowing that information, this Italy body count mania is useless.

So answer the question. Do you know anything about them? Age? Medical issues?
 

cmac88

Well-Known Member
but it’s not any more than any other base is. Tech school for ATC is at Keesler AFB where you do book work and sims. Then you go to your first assignment. Mine was Tyndall AFB where I talked to my first real plane. There is no “training base” that you go to to talk to real planes. You gradiate Keesler and go to your unit to do on the job training. Shepherd had no more brand new trainees than anywhere else.

just like the FAA there’s brand new trainees straight from OKC at almost every facility. All the lower level towers, all the centers, even N90 get trainees that have never talked to a plane before.
Appreciate the insight guess I just misunderstood what they were telling me when I was up there last year. I remember a few talking about where they were going next so I probably made a bit of an assumption as well. It does seem like your always talking to a trainee but guess that's not much different then how much training is going on everywhere.
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
You don’t think that everyone who dies with the corona virus, dies from the corona virus?
My point was more the opposite. The virus doesn't actually kill you. It just makes you more susceptible to things that do kill you. Normally those things are respiratory or infection related but not always.

This is a pretty good article about why the reported rate in Italy is so high.


Tl;dr lots of old people, and per government policy, anybody with covid19 who dies in a hospital is reported to have died from covid19, no matter what.
 

Richman

Well-Known Member
You have to be really, really careful of the stats that people, especially governments, barf up.

We can all agree that DUI is bad, m’kay, but when they report “alcohol related traffic accidents” what they don’t tell you is anything even remotely related to alcohol, even in the most tenuous fashion, is reported as “alcohol related”. The trooper sees that unopened six pack in the back seat, he’s going to tick that box.

Makes the stats look good and scary, which is good for Highway Patrol funding, but doesn’t actually reflect the actual numbers of people driving under the influence.
 

Yakob

Grand Prognosticator Nominee
Yes, I’m sure the Italian government is up to a massive disinformation campaign right now :rolleyes:
Well what can you expect from the country that smoking, chronic respiratory issues and apparently old age are all peculiar to.
 

NovemberEcho

Dergs favorite member
Well what can you expect from the country that smoking, chronic respiratory issues and apparently old age are all peculiar to.
I wish there was more reporting about other euro countries as well. For instance Germany has a LOT of smoking as well. I think it spread faster in Italy because so much cheek kissing etc is standard. Germany social distancing is standard.
 

woodreau

Well-Known Member
Can TRACONs expand their reach and control higher/farther traffic?

Otherwise, here are your new ZID/ZNY ARTCCs....

View attachment 51947View attachment 51948
If given a choice between E-2 or E-3 and knowing nothing about an E-3 and knowing a little more than nothing about an E-2. I would take an E-3 over an E-2.

the radar on an E-2 can see far but it’s pretty bad (e-2c). Maybe they’ve upgraded the radar on the e-2Ds so that it’s better today..

The beam width of an e-2c radar is so wide that at extreme detection range of the radar the area of uncertainty of the aircraft detected is in order of +\- 10 miles. basically an E-2 radar is just good enough to say “hey I think I found something out here.” heads up and you follow up by trying to gain contact with your own SPY-1 array or sending some fighters to go say hello.

the e-2 radar isn’t accurate enough to separate aircraft in an ATC role.

there’s only two crew members in back on an E-2 and there’s a lot more in an e-3.

I always hear of the OS’s that are my air intercept controllers talking about trying to become ATC controllers when they get out. But are always rudely introduced to the reality that all of their career they’ve tried to made the radar paint merge. There is an actual call they make to the fighters under their control - “Merge” which basically lets the fighter pilots know that their ground controller’s surveillance radar can’t discriminate between all of the planes and that now they’re useless in telling the fighters where the bad guys are and that the fighters on their own. FAA controllers spend 100% of their time preventing the “merge.”

There is an ability to bring up commercial airways on the tactical display of the consoles in CIC on the ship. But I don’t think the data about the airways are updated and the airways tend to clutter the display so they’re usually off by default.

But whether commercial airlines will get shut down? It’s becoming very apparent that there is no leadership coming from the federal level to combat this event. Leadership for responding is coming from the state level and from individual companies. There are 50 separate states doing their own thing. Until there is a coordinated national response, commercial aviation will not be shut down. Or the airlines will continue to fly until they economically can not.
 

Richman

Well-Known Member
Yes, I’m sure the Italian government is up to a massive disinformation campaign right now :rolleyes:
You misunderstand the nature of the problem.

Lots of stats are based on what previous people put in the books. When times are good, no one bothers to vet the numbers, and the next set of stats are based on the squishy data, and so forth and so on. This is a compounding problem.

So when people say Italy (or any country, FWIW) says they have x number of beds and x number of pieces equipment or whatever the statistic de jour happens to be, it doesn’t really tell the story. There’s a good chance that some of that equipment is inoperative or is from 1946 or the beds are stored in closet somewhere.

This is how you get something like the Greek financial crisis. No one bothered to check the numbers reported until it was too late.


So, intentional misinformation? Nah. Bogus data, compounded over decades, quite possibly. You can bet the WHO never actually checked the reported data.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
If given a choice between E-2 or E-3 and knowing nothing about an E-3 and knowing a little more than nothing about an E-2. I would take an E-3 over an E-2.

the radar on an E-2 can see far but it’s pretty bad (e-2c). Maybe they’ve upgraded the radar on the e-2Ds so that it’s better today..

The beam width of an e-2c radar is so wide that at extreme detection range of the radar the area of uncertainty of the aircraft detected is in order of +\- 10 miles. basically an E-2 radar is just good enough to say “hey I think I found something out here.” heads up and you follow up by trying to gain contact with your own SPY-1 array or sending some fighters to go say hello.

the e-2 radar isn’t accurate enough to separate aircraft in an ATC role.

there’s only two crew members in back on an E-2 and there’s a lot more in an e-3.

I always hear of the OS’s that are my air intercept controllers talking about trying to become ATC controllers when they get out. But are always rudely introduced to the reality that all of their career they’ve tried to made the radar paint merge. There is an actual call they make to the fighters under their control - “Merge” which basically lets the fighter pilots know that their ground controller’s surveillance radar can’t discriminate between all of the planes and that now they’re useless in telling the fighters where the bad guys are and that the fighters on their own. FAA controllers spend 100% of their time preventing the “merge.”

There is an ability to bring up commercial airways on the tactical display of the consoles in CIC on the ship. But I don’t think the data about the airways are updated and the airways tend to clutter the display so they’re usually off by default.

But whether commercial airlines will get shut down? It’s becoming very apparent that there is no leadership coming from the federal level to combat this event. Leadership for responding is coming from the state level and from individual companies. There are 50 separate states doing their own thing. Until there is a coordinated national response, commercial aviation will not be shut down. Or the airlines will continue to fly until they economically can not.
have heard merge plot enough times in response to enemy fighters versus my own flight’s position in exercises, that then rapidly devolves to a furball call. Lol.
 

Roger Roger

Paid to sleep, fly for fun
And you don’t think that US hospital stats could be subject to similar errors? My nurse buddies are building homemade PAPRs because they assume if it gets here we are going to run out of PPE. They all know people on the front lines in WA so I’m gonna guess they’re not doing that based on media fearmongering.
 

Yakob

Grand Prognosticator Nominee
It’s hilarious that a country bursting with asthmatic, obese, diabetics with hypertension seems to be taking comfort in Italy’s apparent poor preexisting health.
I'm pretty sure all the people with those conditions are actually Italian expats. Next time I see an old person I'll tell them to go back to Italy. Does this mean I'll qualify for Italian citizenship if I live long enough, take up smoking or contract chronic respiratory issues?
 
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