Why...

mrivc211

Well-Known Member
*Why do some Captains single-engine taxi with no APU in a CRJ200 in July? Oh and then they make no PA’s so that every 10 seconds on taxi out a new passenger asks the FA, “why isn’t the air turned on?”

*Why do some pilots fly in Speed Mode up to FL320?

*Why do some pilots RTG for a self-induced “Bleed Misconfig”?

*Why do some pilots decide its a great idea to hand fly the departures out of super busy hub airports forcing their pilot monitoring to be super busy and diverting both of their attention away when it should be outside looking for traffic etc?

*Why do some pilots insist on climbing or descending at 2000fpm when the altitude they were given is only 1-2000ft difference?

*Why do some pilots not read the single-engine out procedures for their runway and just brief it as, “straight out if we lose one, any questions?”?

*Why do some pilots ask an obviously super task saturated center controller for a shortcut every 5 minutes?

*Why do some pilots touch the other pilots FCP when it isn’t their leg to fly?

*Why do some Captains micromanage their FOs and never allow them to make decisions thus never letting them build good decision making abilities for when they will soon be Captain?

*Why do some pilots not look at the weather and then not have the visibility to land at their destination and not enough gas to get to a viable alternate then land with barely a spit in the gas tanks?

*Why did that Check Airman not know how to properly read a TAF and pull a Captain offline for no reason thus jeopardizing their Check Airman letter and said Captains career?

*Why do some Captains tell their cabin crews, “I have you back no matter what” instead of saying, “if you have a problem call me up and we’ll discuss it”?

*Why do some pilots fly a 15 mile downwind on a visual approach?

*Why do some pilots ask for Flaps when we’re still 30+ miles from the airport?

*Why does a pilot post a super racist diatribe on social (key word) media and then get upset when their union doesn’t go to bat for them?

*Why do some Captains taxi at Mach 1 and others at Mach Turtle?

...mysteries of the universe my friends.
You just gave me anxiety, depression, and the feeling of hopelessness all at once.
 

Richman

Well-Known Member
Sarcasm meters are broken. I’m the last guy to hate RJ pilot experience. I remember taking comments by some NW guys ticked off at 9E’s growth at their expense. We were never good enough, and several times I had negative comments tossed our way. Even one of our senior guys at VX who was ex-US Air bemoaned how airline was hiring RJ guys and it wasn’t like that when he was hired.
Rumor that back in the late 80's early 90's, aanother aairline aactually had one of the union base representatives post aa base update that had some comments aalong the lines of "lots of new hires are civilians with unknown histories and skills. Watch out."

Classy.
 

STS-41B

Well-Known Member
So for the CRJ drivers out there .. my understanding is if it’s an RNAV departure, we go NAV mode. Even if the departure is nothing but a heading. However as was said, if the departure says fly a heading.. shouldn’t we go HDG mode? I’ve seen people at my shop do it both ways- but with a wind of 40kts at a couple thousand feet, it could put you way off.

Example: out of BHM, the BHM7 departure just says fly a heading (happens to be runway heading) expect vectors to filed route. the FMS builds a little white track so I go NAV mode and it follows it.. some go HDG and it probably is never noticed by ATC since they quickly hand you off and clear you direct to your first fix.
However... out of LGB on the FRITR departure off runway 30.. it says climb to some altitude on a heading (runway, I believe) then turn south to a 180°heading.. FMS will do it all for you so I go NAV mode and let it do the work. But again, the wording says HEADING but the FMS will be doing a TRACK... if there’s a strong wind at that altitude and ATC expects one thing and you’re doing another.......

So, which is the correct mode to use? My understanding is NAV if you’re on a departure procedure, whether it’s just a basic one like BHM7 or a complex one like you get out of big airports...
 

Roger Roger

Paid to sleep, fly for fun
So for the CRJ drivers out there .. my understanding is if it’s an RNAV departure, we go NAV mode. Even if the departure is nothing but a heading. However as was said, if the departure says fly a heading.. shouldn’t we go HDG mode? I’ve seen people at my shop do it both ways- but with a wind of 40kts at a couple thousand feet, it could put you way off.

Example: out of BHM, the BHM7 departure just says fly a heading (happens to be runway heading) expect vectors to filed route. the FMS builds a little white track so I go NAV mode and it follows it.. some go HDG and it probably is never noticed by ATC since they quickly hand you off and clear you direct to your first fix.
However... out of LGB on the FRITR departure off runway 30.. it says climb to some altitude on a heading (runway, I believe) then turn south to a 180°heading.. FMS will do it all for you so I go NAV mode and let it do the work. But again, the wording says HEADING but the FMS will be doing a TRACK... if there’s a strong wind at that altitude and ATC expects one thing and you’re doing another.......

So, which is the correct mode to use? My understanding is NAV if you’re on a departure procedure, whether it’s just a basic one like BHM7 or a complex one like you get out of big airports...
It says heading, you’re supposed to do heading. That’s what I was always taught anyway.
 

GlenA

Senior Chicken Counter
It sounds like you should be using heading mode if the DP states that. Everyone using that departure will be a similar amount of "off" with a 40kt wind and ATC should expect that. But if you use NAV, with everyone else using heading you could easily be flying 20 degrees off of what other aircraft are doing. Yes, you will be in line with the runway, but you wouldn't be following the DP.
 

bLizZuE

Fly airplanes, drink beer, never at the same time.
I don’t remember the CRJ FMS but the Airbus will do both heading and track.
 

Beefy McGee

Well-Known Member
The SID says flying heading. So flying in NaV gives you a heading. And airbus flies the heading regardless of wind.
If Airbus flies a heading regardless of the wind, it would be flying a track (by definition) and not a heading, no? Headings don’t account for drift unless you are flying a corrected heading, which the CLT SIDs in question do not. They specify a raw heading of 330 or 025 etc, not one with your own crab factored in. Factoring in the crab would make that heading a ground track.


Flying in NAV on a CRJ puts you on a track, which the plane flies with no wind drift. Flying a heading as indicated by the SID (CLT in these examples) allows the plane to drift with the wind. If everyone coming out of CLT is in HDG, they should all drift about the same with the winds amd maintain separation. Now why CLT wants it that way and has SIDs that start with raw headings vs a regular SID track (RNAV, track a radial, whatever) from the get-go that never changes? Who knows.

So for the CRJ drivers out there .. my understanding is if it’s an RNAV departure, we go NAV mode. Even if the departure is nothing but a heading. However as was said, if the departure says fly a heading.. shouldn’t we go HDG mode? (Yes) I’ve seen people at my shop do it both ways (so that means some of them are doing it wrong) but with a wind of 40kts at a couple thousand feet, it could put you way off. (Ok, but they want you on the heading, if they were concerned about winds changing the track it would not be a heading, it would be charted as RNAV fixes that kept you on ATC’s desired ground track from the beginning)

Example: out of BHM, the BHM7 departure just says fly a heading (happens to be runway heading) expect vectors to filed route. the FMS builds a little white track so I go NAV mode and it follows it..(that means you are flying a track, not the heading the chart specified) some go HDG and it probably is never noticed by ATC since they quickly hand you off and clear you direct to your first fix. (HDG would be the correct mode here)
However... out of LGB on the FRITR departure off runway 30.. it says climb to some altitude on a heading (runway, I believe) then turn south to a 180°heading.. FMS will do it all for you so I go NAV mode and let it do the work. (If it says heading and you don’t use HDG, and as a result it maintains a track and not the specified heading, then technically you are doing it wrong because that’s not what the chart specified) But again, the wording says HEADING but the FMS will be doing a TRACK (yes this understanding is correct)... if there’s a strong wind at that altitude and ATC expects one thing (a heading) and you’re doing another (a track)......

So, which is the correct mode to use? My understanding is NAV if you’re on a departure procedure, whether it’s just a basic one like BHM7 or a complex one like you get out of big airports...
Routes / flight plans are all based on ground courses / tracks from point to point once we get onto that first fix after takeoff.

HDG mode while on the heading part of the SID, then NAV once you get vectored to a fix on the RNAV departure. From then on you are flying the SID ground tracks unless you get vectored off again. That’s how the FMS modes work. It also ensures you are flying a heading and not a track if that’s what the chart calls for.
 
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STS-41B

Well-Known Member
right.. so I think the verbiage on the chart needs to be changed or clarified. ?
because the FRITR out of LGB also says heading but we always enter the departure in the FMS and do it NAV mode... so we’re obviously following a track, in reality.. contrary to the instructions.
 

bLizZuE

Fly airplanes, drink beer, never at the same time.
If Airbus flies a heading regardless of the wind, it would be flying a track (by definition) and not a heading, no? Headings don’t account for drift unless you are flying a corrected heading, which the CLT SIDs in question do not. They specify a raw heading of 330 or 025 etc, not one with your own crab factored in. Factoring in the crab would make that heading a ground track.


Flying in NAV on a CRJ puts you on a track, which the plane flies with no wind drift. Flying a heading as indicated by the SID (CLT in these examples) allows the plane to drift with the wind. If everyone coming out of CLT is in HDG, they should all drift about the same with the winds amd maintain separation. Now why CLT wants it that way and has SIDs that start with raw headings vs a regular SID track (RNAV, track a radial, whatever) from the get-go that never changes? Who knows.



Routes / flight plans are all based on ground courses / tracks from point to point once we get onto that first fix after takeoff.

HDG mode while on the heading part of the SID, then NAV once you get vectored to a fix on the RNAV departure. From then on you are flying the SID ground tracks unless you get vectored off again. That’s how the FMS modes work. It also ensures you are flying a heading and not a track if that’s what the chart calls for.
The airbus will fly a heading or a track.
 

msmspilot

Well-Known Member
The Collins manual for the FMS in the CRJ says, “For departure and arrival procedures that include legs that must be flown to a specified heading rather than a course, the FMS steers the aircraft to maintain the FMS flight plan heading.”

The CLT departures put a heading leg in the FMS. By the book, it should fly a heading.
 

Jordan93

Well-Known Member
The Collins manual for the FMS in the CRJ says, “For departure and arrival procedures that include legs that must be flown to a specified heading rather than a course, the FMS steers the aircraft to maintain the FMS flight plan heading.”

The CLT departures put a heading leg in the FMS. By the book, it should fly a heading.
It does. IIRC, CLT SIDs are like fly heading 123 to 1500 then heading 130. NAV mode in the CRJ will make the turn to the HDG of 130 after 1500.
 

Beefy McGee

Well-Known Member
The Collins manual for the FMS in the CRJ says, “For departure and arrival procedures that include legs that must be flown to a specified heading rather than a course, the FMS steers the aircraft to maintain the FMS flight plan heading.”

The CLT departures put a heading leg in the FMS. By the book, it should fly a heading.
You’re right on that. I see the same small paragraph in the FMS manual for the CRJ 7/9/10. It’s the only reference to this subject I found so far in the whole manual.

I will have to check the CRJ 2 FMS manual and see if it says anything different.

I’ll try to remember to closely watch our departures from CLT tomorrow and try NAV mode on the heading portion of the RNAV SID instead of our company’s SOP of HDG and see if there is a difference. Maybe NAV will turn at a different altitude than our SOP or something.
 

msmspilot

Well-Known Member
You’re right on that. I see the same small paragraph in the FMS manual for the CRJ 7/9/10. It’s the only reference to this subject I found so far in the whole manual.

I will have to check the CRJ 2 FMS manual and see if it says anything different.

I’ll try to remember to closely watch our departures from CLT tomorrow and try NAV mode on the heading portion of the RNAV SID instead of our company’s SOP of HDG and see if there is a difference. Maybe NAV will turn at a different altitude than our SOP or something.
I should take a picture of it for this thread, but the FMS has something like “330 (VECT)” for those legs.

The Nav won’t turn at a different altitude, because, in CLT at least, the turn is programmed into the FMS at 1260 MSL, which is what’s on the chart, and happens to be 400’ AGL.
 

STS-41B

Well-Known Member
exactly. so NAV mode is correct. which is want I thought but was second-guessing myself since some go HDG mode.
thx
 

Beefy McGee

Well-Known Member
Yep, tried NAV mode today in a 700 and it worked. It definitely flew a heading with no wind drift correction. Good to know.

However, my company requires HDG mode for those RNAV departures, and after thinking about it a minute, I realized why. If you take off and select NAV mode first, then if CLT gives you any other additional vector prior to “direct FIXXX”, you will be selecting HDG anyway to do that unless you are hand flying. My company must have decided HDG mode with more than one vector was more likely to be used, and set our SOP to try to minimize folks screwing up by forgetting to take it off NAV if they got a second vector.
 
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