Where's everyone going?

abcd

New Member
Re: Where\'s everyone going?

DE727UPS, by the way, i'm not out to pick fights with you I promise. Like I said before I know you have the intrests of people in mind and thats a good thing. I am not a used car salesman, of course I don't want anyone sold down the river but people need to be accountable for things as well. That's all i'm saying.
 

DE727UPS

Well-Known Member
Re: Where\'s everyone going?

"I'm sure you will have an answer for it but what is wrong with doing it full time/ an accellerated program.?"

Nothing. How did our argument end up with that?

"but what you seem to be saying is that the FBO route operates on a lower level with lower expectaions"

One nice thing about the FBO route is you get your ratings and put in your time. You get hired based on your quals and not a "program" cause your academy "has the connections". This even happens at DCA when guys don't hang around for the guaranteed interview but are able to depart DCA before their contract is up. They got hired cause of their experience, not cause they had the "guaranteed interview".

The problem with big academy marketing touting their "program", rather than just good old fashioned time and experience, is that "programs" can change. "Program" airlines can stop hiring or even furlough. While the guy who has the time and experience has many options. The marketing should be touting the quality of the school, not, "you'll get hired if you train with us cause WE have the connections"

It's BS, any professional pilot can see it for what it is.
 

SteveC

Really?
Staff member
Re: Where\'s everyone going?

[ QUOTE ]
You seem to have scorn for these "bigger academies"....<snip>...but I am just tired of you portraying them as the wrong way to go....<snip>...No problem in the world with anyone doing it the FBO route...but what's wrong with the "big academies".

[/ QUOTE ]

I may be out of place by stepping in here, but I'll put my opinion in anyway.


I don't think that Don has ever said anything bad about the academies' programs, just their marketing practices. I'm pretty much in agreement with many of the things that DE says regarding how they market and subtly play to young people's unrealistic expectations. That said, I don't have a problem with the quality of the pilots that they put out, and I doubt that Don does either. (I sometimes have a problem with a few of the academy pilot's assertion that they are "better" simply because of where they trained, but that's a different subject entirely.)

My bottom-line opinion on many of the academies: good training, deceptive marketing, high prices, unreasonable career expectations, good training.
 

abcd

New Member
Re: Where\'s everyone going?

It would be very annoying to be around some guy that is acting high and mighty about his flying skills for no other reason than where he/she went to get their training. There is no reason for that. Don't get me wrong I'm not advocating the marketing for DCA...go ahead and put a link here in my opinion but some things are out of everyone's control. Who would have thought three months ago comair would start a hiring feeze after ordering new jets and interviewing like wildfire. As far as academy programs...well they seem to work for those that get through. I don't think anyone disputes that here..I think the problem is for the new guy getting from point a to b as a student and leaving. That's another issue for another day. A lot of that comes from dca's attitude but it also goes both ways..some people just don't mesh with it their due to money, attitude, whatever. The fault rests on both parties shoulders. I think the next few months will be a good lithmus test for how the programs do work and fit...when no one seems to be hiring or interviewing we will see if people keep getting throught the academy and keep getting to the regionals. As far as the experience thing goes you are right..you can't put a price on that..some of those 10 plus 4 people are in a lot of trouble if they get cut from Comair in december...they are 700 hour pilots at that point and will have trouble finding a place to work if they choose not to stay with Comair, but for the instructors leaving here with their 1000total time then the door opens for them a bit more..they will have other options should some doors close.
 

dcapilot

New Member
Re: Where\'s everyone going?

I haven't posted in quite a while, so I thought I'd chime in.

Never has DCA guaranteed me a job. Never has Comair or any other Delta Connection airline told me that because I attended the academy or work as an instructor at the academy that I will be hired. DCA makes it very clear that although they do "guarantee" you an interview....that it is up to YOU to get that job. It is offensive that anyone would say DCA graduates are hired strictly because of the "program" they went through and not based on their qualifications.

When DCA graduates go to an airline to interview, they are put through the SAME interview that everyone else is. To honestly think otherwise is a shame......



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Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first. ---Ronald Reagan
 

DE727UPS

Well-Known Member
Re: Where\'s everyone going?

"It is offensive that anyone would say DCA graduates are hired strictly because of the "program" they went through and not based on their qualifications.


Then perhaps DCA should start advertising the quality of their training which produces well qualified pilots instead of.

"Being owned by Delta makes all the difference" (has no bearing on quality or qualificatons)

"DCA can take you from 700 hours to jet airline pilot" (sounds like a program to me)

"DCA has the connections" (who needs to be qualified if you have the connections)

Why don't they stop the BS and just rely on the reputation the fine graduates of DCA bring to the industry? I'll tell ya, cause BS sells better and works better...
 

abcd

New Member
Re: Where\'s everyone going?

727 Do you honestly think that Comair or any other airline for that matter would hire someone that didn't have the qualifications. The only thing that DCA did was get them the interview...The interview for them is no different than it would be for someone with 5000 hrs. They make it on their own merit, knowledge and skill...and they alone are the ones who get the jobs for themselves...the academy just gets them the interview. Now if a program gets a person ready to succeed in that interview which is the same for everyone and they happen to do it in a low amount of time then what's wrong with that. Not a thing. DCA got them ready quickly and the instructor received the knowledge and training to satisfy the regional. So the "program" thing you say is not true. The program gets them to the door but the job isn't a part of it...the applicant has to do that on their own just like anyone else..so they earn eveything they get...if they can do that with lower time congrats to them...just because you did it another way doesn't mean you deserved that first job more than someone who goes through the academy with low time. Until you actually go to SFB or a meeting or a tour then all of your banter seems trivial to me. You talk about informing the newbee but why not go down their if you are so passionate about it and open all our eyes. Until you do that you do nothing more than speculate. You say you don't want to waste your time but I say you don't want to find out that maybe they don't put an evil spin on things like you think. Saddle up and put your money where your mouth is.
 

951fan

New Member
Re: Where\'s everyone going?

[ QUOTE ]
727 Do you honestly think that Comair or any other airline for that matter would hire someone that didn't have the qualifications. The only thing that DCA did was get them the interview...The interview for them is no different than it would be for someone with 5000 hrs. They make it on their own merit, knowledge and skill...and they alone are the ones who get the jobs for themselves...the academy just gets them the interview. Now if a program gets a person ready to succeed in that interview which is the same for everyone and they happen to do it in a low amount of time then what's wrong with that. Not a thing. DCA got them ready quickly and the instructor received the knowledge and training to satisfy the regional. So the "program" thing you say is not true. The program gets them to the door but the job isn't a part of it...the applicant has to do that on their own just like anyone else..so they earn eveything they get...if they can do that with lower time congrats to them...just because you did it another way doesn't mean you deserved that first job more than someone who goes through the academy with low time. Until you actually go to SFB or a meeting or a tour then all of your banter seems trivial to me. You talk about informing the newbee but why not go down their if you are so passionate about it and open all our eyes. Until you do that you do nothing more than speculate. You say you don't want to waste your time but I say you don't want to find out that maybe they don't put an evil spin on things like you think. Saddle up and put your money where your mouth is.

[/ QUOTE ]

abcd, you've completely missed the point. Of course DCA grads take the same FAA checkrides and have the same interviews as non-grads. DE727 isn't saying that they're bad pilots and they only got the FO job because they went through the program and paid for the interview. His point (he can correct me if I'm wrong) is that DCA uses slick marketing and the Delta name to convince prospective pilots this is the quickest and best way to an airline job, which it is clearly not, and it comes with a hefty price tag of $65k-95k. The guaranteed interview thing is down right silly IMO. With the amount of pilots the regionals have been hiring, it was just as easy to get an interview with ASA, Skywest, etc. coming from some small fbo as it was for the DCA grads. You also suggest DE727 should put his money where his mouth is and fly down to Sanford to check out the operation? What in the hell for? It's a flight school, I mean academy (part of the slick marketing), nothing more. They're on an airport, they have some planes (old, crappy ones I might add), some FTDs, a flight store, classrooms, etc. So what? DCA does absolutely nothing special that warrants a trip there. If you are happy with your training there, feel the cost is justified, and aren't worried about your financial future when you're done (assuming you took a loan out for it), then by all means continue. I on the other hand will continue to encourage other prospective students to really focus their flight school search on schools that promote quality training at competitive prices. It was sad talking with some instructors there that are in there early 20's, no degree, with $100k-$120k in total debt (not just flight training) while making $10/hr. Yeah, sure, they still might make it to the airlines, but some will end up ruining themselves financially in the process.
 

abcd

New Member
Re: Where\'s everyone going?

If they in fact are owned by an airline then why wouldn't they use that in their marketing. It is something that makes them different than another flight school somewhere else. Anyway like I said before I have no problem with 727...he has every right to say what he wants..I just think that to speak the way he does at times about their marketing and how sneaky they are..why not take advantage of the free flight down and find out for sure. Go to the problem and investigate it. I don't mean to attack anyone at all...that's just my opinion like he has his. As far as the guys that go their without a degree I have a major problem with that. They shouldn't let anyone under 22 in their in my opinion. I have very strong feelings about that. They take some people that have no buisness being there and that is evident by how the act/ their maturity/ and how lightly they take what they are doing. Don't get me wrong..their are quite a few extreamly sharp young guys their..but they are the exception to the rule. If a kid who is 18 is willing to spend the money to go to the academy...they should use it to go to college first...That degree is so important. That's my pet peeve in the academy I think and the airline industry in general. I just think college is so important and you can't even get a job hardly these days anywhere without one but go ahead and fly a plane because who cares about a college degree (regionals). What happens if they loose their medicals...nothing to fall back on at all.
 

DE727UPS

Well-Known Member
Re: Where\'s everyone going?

"The guaranteed interview thing is down right silly IMO."

That was going to be my next comment. In this day and age, the guaranteed interview is nothing more than a marketing ploy. Especially with someone who has 1100 total and a couple hundred multi.

"You also suggest DE727 should put his money where his mouth is and fly down to Sanford to check out the operation?"

I wonder if this abcd guy knows what I do for a living and knows what a jumpseat is?

I've been invited to Pan Am, CAPT, and DCA. My response to that is it's not the school and training that bothers me so much as the marketing schemes and magazine ads. I can see those on the computer or in flight training. No need to waste my time going anywhere.

Like I'm going to go down to Sanford, see DCA, and walk away thinking being owned my Delta really DOES make all the difference. Right.......
 

abcd

New Member
Re: Where\'s everyone going?

I wonder if this abcd guy knows what I do for a living and knows what a jumpseat is?

I think everyone in America and Canada probably knows that you work for UPS and for that matter you have made sure we know how much you make as well. Thats fine and great...and no..what is a jumpseat...are they special chairs in ups jets or something? Your job is great..i'm proud of you. That is why I said you should go down there..one it would be easy for you to do jumpseating or two you could go their with one of their tickets. That's fine if you want to go by the adds..it was just a suggestion. I don't pretend to know all about UPS just because I see what can brown do for you..nor do I think you know all their is to know about DCA by the adds. Talk to one of their reps on the phone and pretend to be a student and see how they "spin" it to you. If you feel scammed then by all means tell everyone but I think you would find they are very honest to you and will shoot you straight..just give em a call. It would take you ten minutes. How is a guaranteed interview a marketing ploy...it's the truth. The way things seem to be going lately it may be more important than in the past when the regionals were hiring like crazy..things have slowed down a bit right now.
 

project7

New Member
Re: Where\'s everyone going?

[ QUOTE ]
and no..what is a jumpseat...are they special chairs in ups jets or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Don, that pretty much says it all right there.
 

abcd

New Member
Re: Where\'s everyone going?

Project7.....I didn't think I needed the sarcasm picture at the end of that but apparently....i'm speechless. I don't know what a jumpseat is...duh...come on. Give me a break. You need to use context clues and read the whole thing slowly. Why would I say it was so easy for him to go to sfb 1, free ticked from delta, 2. he can jumpseat a flight...I hope you are only twelve or something.
 

project7

New Member
Re: Where\'s everyone going?

[ QUOTE ]
Project7.....I didn't think I needed the sarcasm picture at the end of that but apparently....i'm speechless. I don't know what a jumpseat is...duh...come on. Give me a break. You need to use context clues and read the whole thing slowly. Why would I say it was so easy for him to go to sfb 1, free ticked from delta, 2. he can jumpseat a flight...I hope you are only twelve or something.


[/ QUOTE ]

Take a chill pill there big kid. I could care less what you've been ranting about. What I do find funny is the almost monthly occurence around here where some hyper little SJS victim decides to go toe-to-toe with a UPS 767/57 pilot who does nothing but try to help out young people.
 

DE727UPS

Well-Known Member
Re: Where\'s everyone going?

I don't really mind the conversations as it gives me the chance to tell give my point of view over and over with a slight twist here and there. Some people find it redundant. It would be interesting to see how many have blocked (ignore) me.

I think it's important to keep at it as newbies who might be mislead by big academy marketing may come to jetcareers and not dig very far back into the posts or consider anything more than a month old not relevant.

I simply believe it's important that everyone that enters this career be VERY educated as to what it's all about. That's what's great about jetcareers. A simple link to jetcareers at the academy websites would calm me down. Skymates is the only one that has one.
 

abcd

New Member
Re: Where\'s everyone going?

I agree with you. I think they should have a link here or to some other website for some info. I'm not trying to hassle you. I respect where you are and how you got there but I think forums exist for this reason..to throw out different perspectives. Out of curiosity...what are the big things you think newbee's should be aware of about the industry that you don't think they get.
 

DE727UPS

Well-Known Member
Re: Where\'s everyone going?

A perfect example is at the PanAm website. They have a section there called "industry news". It only contains positive news stories about who's hiring and expanding. No mention of the negative issues with Chap 11's or fuloughs. It's wrong to have an "industry news" section and only show one side of the picture.
 

hobo

New Member
good point about the pan am website 727. the advertising at big schools is sad. they would give us little to talk about if they were straightforward and honest and didnt spin things. like the way atp advertises all the people hired from atp even tho some of them never instructed at atp. yeah they did at least one rating with atp but thats kind of crazy since they say they give out 5000 ratings a year. so 116 end up at airlines out of students who did 5000 ratings. dca does it a little differently. their hired page is only dca instructors but they give no indications about the weed out rate. how many people start the program and never finish? they should be up front about that. they usually have about 800 students total among their campuses. if there are 800 students starting the program each year and 116 get hired where did the rest go?
with most of the major airlines in bankruptcy how do you only hear news about the growth of the industry? I wish they didnt try to sell the program at the expense of the students.
"Being airlined owned makes a difference" yup it makes it more expensive and in DCAs case doesnt do anything for an individual student
 

abcd

New Member
why would dca try and weed people out hobo.....doesn't make any sence with your view on how they operate. You say they are out for the money but if they weeded people out then they would loose that money from those students in the future. What buisness or college anywhere in the country gives you the websites of their critics, or for that matter any information that portrays them poorly? I've never seen a movie with bad critics show for the trailer or at a doctors office a list of people that have sued for malpractice....it's the customer's responcibility to be informed and make a decision based on that not the buisness
 
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