When do you call professional standards?

I'm fairly confident that at every 121 airline there is something in the manuals that's worded along the lines of checklists must not be recited from memory.

While maybe just handing the guy a checklist like that and saying "lets try again" is a really direct approach I probably wouldn't take, the message still needs to get across that checklists are not to be done by memory. Even if you have it correctly memorized, that's not the point of a checklist. It's not supposed to be done by memory. Flows are suppose to be done by memory, and they are then backed up by checklists.


Another pet peeve of mine was the CAs who would respond to my checklist item before I was done saying the item in question. For example, "Flight Deck Prep" and the answer is "Complete." I barely get out "Flight Dec..." and hear "Complete" Gear Pins and Covers.......... stowed. I say "Gear Pin___" he already responds "stowed!"

Bro, how about letting me finish first. No, I'm not impressed you know the response to my challenge from a checklist. And no, you don't sound cool cutting me off.
I totally agree with this, still I think that's a crummy way to go about "setting the tone of the flight" (tm). To the captain it says, "hey this FO is going to be a snarky PITA the rest of the trip." Basically the guy made an enemy before the parking break was even released. Yeah the FO managed to get the before takeoff checklist done right, but he's done so at the expense of things being cordial. It's adversarial and a bit pedantic.

As a corollary, a friend of mine who flies cargo in 737s recently told me an anecdote about how he (as an FO) made one of the calls slightly incorrectly. The captain corrected him and started talking about why it was important that they made the callout exactly as in the FOM instead of omitting then blew through the localizer. I forget what he said was messed up - I think he said, "one t'go" instead of "1000 to go" or something of that nature. Yes, the captain was right to say something, but not then as they were joining the loc. The captain should have said something when they weren't trying to join the localizer - ideally on the ground with the parking break set. In the circumstance above you can correct the situation without being a wanker.

As for your situation, I'd just straight up ask, "hey, can you wait until I'm done speaking before replying? I know you know the appropriate response, I know it too, I just want to do it right."
99.9% of people won't fight you on it if you ask to "just do it the right way" - if they do fight you on something simple like that you don't want to fly with them anyway, so take yourself off the trip.
 
You must not be flying with any northern F/O's. Wait....they all must be CAs by now. Had one that had the Before Start Checklist memorized. Thought he was cool by looking strait out the windscreen rattling it off w/o referring to it. When finished I handed him my checklist and said let's try that again. He was on the ALPA Safety Committee.
A majority of my strangest/worst experiences have been with ALPA safety guys... not sure what it is about who is attracted to that.

I’ve def said to CAs that pull that “would you at least make me think you’re semi looking at it?” I haven’t seen it yet from FOs, but when I was at Pinnacle I had FOs think it was cool to have it memorized a couple times that generated a similar response on at least make me think you’re reading it.

I’m a toucher on checklist responses when it’s a switch position and pointer otherwise. Too many people have died not being intentional on checklist response.
 

JordanD

Honorary Member
I totally agree with this, still I think that's a crummy way to go about "setting the tone of the flight" (tm). To the captain it says, "hey this FO is going to be a snarky PITA the rest of the trip." Basically the guy made an enemy before the parking break was even released. Yeah the FO managed to get the before takeoff checklist done right, but he's done so at the expense of things being cordial. It's adversarial and a bit pedantic.

As a corollary, a friend of mine who flies cargo in 737s recently told me an anecdote about how he (as an FO) made one of the calls slightly incorrectly. The captain corrected him and started talking about why it was important that they made the callout exactly as in the FOM instead of omitting then blew through the localizer. I forget what he said was messed up - I think he said, "one t'go" instead of "1000 to go" or something of that nature. Yes, the captain was right to say something, but not then as they were joining the loc. The captain should have said something when they weren't trying to join the localizer - ideally on the ground with the parking break set. In the circumstance above you can correct the situation without being a wanker.

As for your situation, I'd just straight up ask, "hey, can you wait until I'm done speaking before replying? I know you know the appropriate response, I know it too, I just want to do it right."
99.9% of people won't fight you on it if you ask to "just do it the right way" - if they do fight you on something simple like that you don't want to fly with them anyway, so take yourself off the trip.
There’s a difference between slightly messing up the verbiage of a call out (maybe they flew a different type) and flat out reciting a checklist from memory which in my mind is borderline negligent. Sorry, but putting the captain in the position to have to call you out is more of jerk move in my opinion. It’s literally one of the easiest parts of the job. From the left seat perspective, doing that also sets the tone that “great... this guy had already done something non standard intentionally, out of laziness, now I’m going to have to watch/coach this guy the whole time and tell him to do his job.” That mentality will go a long way towards making you wonder if you can rely on the person sitting next to you, or wondering if you’re going to have to carry the weight of two pilots the whole trip because someone can’t be bothered to do one of the simplest parts of their job correctly. I would be a little annoyed too. Maybe would have phrased it differently, but in no short terms would make it clear that that wasn’t going to fly.
 

Jordan93

Well-Known Member
A majority of my strangest/worst experiences have been with ALPA safety guys... not sure what it is about who is attracted to that.

I’ve def said to CAs that pull that “would you at least make me think you’re semi looking at it?” I haven’t seen it yet from FOs, but when I was at Pinnacle I had FOs think it was cool to have it memorized a couple times that generated a similar response on at least make me think you’re reading it.

I’m a toucher on checklist responses when it’s a switch position and pointer otherwise. Too many people have died not being intentional on checklist response.
It still happens at Endeavor. The weird thing is most of the FOs who I see doing it are the ohe’s with about a year of seniority. They are usually the ones that give me the most problems. I flew with a top 10 NYC FO who’s been with the company for 10 years and he was a pleasure to fly and made my job easy.
 

Autothrust Blue

"Get in, loser. We're going flying."
I had looked up the NWA and it was 156 dead and Spainair was 154, so just making sure. But sadly Spanair and NWA weren't the only ones with flap retracted takeoff fatalities. The worse was probably LAPA 737-200. At least in NWA DTW and Spanair they never got the T/O config horn for certain reasons (CB pulled for NW, MEL procedure deactivated warning for Spanair). For LAPA, the entire takeoff roll they had the takeoff warning config horn going off. What's that noise? Don't know? Oh well lets just keep going. The subsequent crash took out a car killing both in the car and more than half the passengers inside the plane.
Or, in DFW - Always helps to be discussing the sexual proclivities of the flight attendants while rattling off “fifteen fifteen green light” for flaps from memory, instead of looking at the gauges and lights.

(With the TOWS breaker opened.)

That said, Whisky Romeo Zulú is a great movie if you haven’t seen it.
 
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Autothrust Blue

"Get in, loser. We're going flying."
There’s a difference between slightly messing up the verbiage of a call out (maybe they flew a different type) and flat out reciting a checklist from memory which in my mind is borderline negligent. Sorry, but putting the captain in the position to have to call you out is more of jerk move in my opinion. It’s literally one of the easiest parts of the job. From the left seat perspective, doing that also sets the tone that “great... this guy had already done something non standard intentionally, out of laziness, now I’m going to have to watch/coach this guy the whole time and tell him to do his job.” That mentality will go a long way towards making you wonder if you can rely on the person sitting next to you, or wondering if you’re going to have to carry the weight of two pilots the whole trip because someone can’t be bothered to do one of the simplest parts of their job correctly. I would be a little annoyed too. Maybe would have phrased it differently, but in no short terms would make it clear that that wasn’t going to fly.
“Dude. Read it off the card, or at least pretend you’re looking at it.”

(And it didn’t happen again.)

-shrug-

(Guy actually turned out to be pretty cool, but he was awful snarly for a few legs after that. However, he at least pretended to be looking at the checklist, so mission accomplished. And oddly, he asked for a probationary pilot evaluation — “okay, do you want me to put what happened on leg one in it?” “No sir.” “Okay. I’ll see you on the next trip and we’ll pretend it never happened.”)
 
It still happens at Endeavor. The weird thing is most of the FOs who I see doing it are the ohe’s with about a year of seniority. They are usually the ones that give me the most problems. I flew with a top 10 NYC FO who’s been with the company for 10 years and he was a pleasure to fly and made my job easy.
10 year FO??? He doesn't want to upgrade? Upgrade went pretty low at your shop for awhile. Think it still is.
 

Jordan93

Well-Known Member
10 year FO??? He doesn't want to upgrade? Upgrade went pretty low at your shop for awhile. Think it still is.
He was Colgan and just never upgraded. Money is not an issue and he’s got a great schedule. Still at 10 years, he can make bank and hold at least 15-18 days off a month as a CA. He doesn’t commute either. To each their own. The #60 guy in the entire company has been an FO for 25 years and has no intention of upgrading.
 
It still happens at Endeavor. The weird thing is most of the FOs who I see doing it are the ohe’s with about a year of seniority. They are usually the ones that give me the most problems. I flew with a top 10 NYC FO who’s been with the company for 10 years and he was a pleasure to fly and made my job easy.

Did you ever fly with DTW FO Mack attack? He recently retired. Pretty sure he was FO the whole time (10 yrs) and either tried to upgrade and couldn't, or they wouldn't let him upgrade. Guy was in my class at 9E. Here's how you know you've got an oddball from the getgo: guy drives a hearse to newhire class. A hearse, you know, the vehicle you use to transport a dead dude. Yeah he was my sim partner..... o_O
 
At the regional level I am immediately suspicious of anyone who doesn’t take the first upgrade and clear datum without delay*.

* life intervenes, though - also understood.

I like how some regional pilots (quite a few actually) are beotching on APC about forced upgrades at their regional. Try being 5-10th yr RJ FOs who couldn't even hold an upgrade then get back to me about a forced upgrade at a regional. How times have changed, yet pilot beotching is a constant.
 

Autothrust Blue

"Get in, loser. We're going flying."
I like how some regional pilots (quite a few actually) are beotching on APC about forced upgrades at their regional. Try being 5-10th yr RJ FOs who couldn't even hold an upgrade then get back to me about a forced upgrade at a regional. How times have changed, yet pilot beotching is a constant.
If the wife I didn’t have was made of money, that would be another story.
 

trafficinsight

Well-Known Member
Did you ever fly with DTW FO Mack attack? He recently retired. Pretty sure he was FO the whole time (10 yrs) and either tried to upgrade and couldn't, or they wouldn't let him upgrade. Guy was in my class at 9E. Here's how you know you've got an oddball from the getgo: guy drives a hearse to newhire class. A hearse, you know, the vehicle you use to transport a dead dude. Yeah he was my sim partner..... o_O
I immediately like anyone who daily drives a hearse

Sorry man.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
 

JordanD

Honorary Member
Being in charge is nice, but senior FO is a pretty damn sweet gig. Not "having" to worry about medical or license issues because you had a pretty solid second income would be cool.
 

Jordan93

Well-Known Member
Did you ever fly with DTW FO Mack attack? He recently retired. Pretty sure he was FO the whole time (10 yrs) and either tried to upgrade and couldn't, or they wouldn't let him upgrade. Guy was in my class at 9E. Here's how you know you've got an oddball from the getgo: guy drives a hearse to newhire class. A hearse, you know, the vehicle you use to transport a dead dude. Yeah he was my sim partner..... o_O
Nope. I don’t think I’ve flown with him.
 
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