What's the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

I've been following this board for the past few months and have noticed a dramatic increase in negative comments towards Pan Am.

Perhaps if we all step back for a moment, collect our thoughts and clearly list what changes you think need to be made at the school, maybe it'll actually happen.

Use this thread, clearly list what your situation is and suggest a possible solution.

Believe me, Pan Am monitors this forum far more than you realize.

Keep it short, concise and forward-looking and I think you'll have the best chance of having your situation resolved.
 

guido161st

New Member
Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

Doug- I applaud your attempt, but I'm affraid it's wishfull thinking. When I attended Pan Am, we had a student union to present collected thoughts from other students. We would discuss common problems and complaints and possible solutions with the administration. Not one thing changed! Things as little as changing items in the vending machine! Of course there were bigger things, but now is not the time

Doug is right though- these boards are monitored by Pan Am. I too would love to hear some of the current situations and problems at Pan Am. Hopefully it can be short and to the point- Problem.... Solution....Best of luck and Hopefully you can get some of these things resolved.
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

Perhaps 334,243.86 hits average per day might convince them otherwise?

I know it's wishful thinking, but if they're not willing to step up and alleviate issues that students may have with the program or business practices, it might help other people by seeing the discussion.
 

Tired

New Member
Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

Yeah, why is it that the students can only take one leave of absence for up to seven days during their training. This reduces quality, there are situations where students really need a couple days off from flying to deal with personal issues. Instead the students just fly really poor for a couple days wasting their money and their instructors time. Or they just call in sick, which really screws up the schedule and isn’t fair on the instructors.
 

Tired

New Member
Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

One other thought, why is someone who hasn't atteneded PanAm in almost two years still complaing about the choices in the vending machines?
Come on keephope, you can admit that's pretty funny.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

I think that the training environment at Pan Am could be improved by setting it up more toward effective learning. this means fewer flights, consistant scheduling and days off completely every week.

Flying too much defeats learning. the flights would be more effective if you had say a two hour flight and a day off between. flying when learning to fly is taxing. plus in the end it wouldn't take that much longer and would cost less for the student because of fewer RT missions.

when ground school runs monday through friday but your instructors days off are tuesday/wednesday you are going to be working 7 days a week for 4 weeks. it seems very obvious to me that you don't perform well if you never get a chance to relax. Try working for 30 days straight and see how your productivity suffer.

scheduling flights around the same time everyday really helps because we are creatures of routine. plus if you need to get a part time job because your living money is running out you can schedule something like that.

Lastly i think charging separately for briefing would be good. on a four hour flight you should get a 1.6 hour brief. there is nothing to brief for that long so why pay for it. i personally think that a 20 min brief for each flight plus 10 min for pre\post flight should be the charge. or some type of system that is more accurate in charging for services rendered. not based on hobbs.
 

guido161st

New Member
Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

I meant when I was there- they didn't change things in the vending machines! I could care less now. I know it's funny. But it just goes to show ya, something as little as that- they just don't care
 

Tired

New Member
Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

So, I realy want to know, what is wrong with the selections in the vending machines?
 

casaosa

New Member
Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

Oh My Goodness you guys. Doug tried to start a legitimate conversation and discuss and we are hearing about the vending machaines??? Once again, I will be on Pan Am's side...at least in FPR, they have nothing to do with the vending machaines, the Tiki owes and operates them. Actually, there was a change when a student or instructor spent money to get something out and replaced it with contraceptive devices....now this was good!!! I wish I would have thought of it. But can this discuss please end here, how pointless is this???
Unsat...I hear what your saying but this is a discussion that you need to have with your instructor. You need to get the same days off if possible but if not and you still have to attend a ground school then make sure that is all you have scheduled. Again, I have said it before, you all know what PAIFA's motto is - For sure!!!! I'm not saying it is right or wrong but there are alternatives and I know many students right now who are taking those alternatives. They do not want to see you fail, nor are they trying to make you fail. Work with those that can help you. Start from the bottom up....
As for the brief time, as I understand it, I think you guys are looking at it wrong. The brief time isn't the time you spend with the instructor after the flight, it's basically the whole instructor, flight and preflight and post....The instructors only get paid when they are actually flying (or teaching, or doing duty CFI). If you no show, call in sick, whatever, the instructor has just stood around for probably a couple of hours not getting paid. Look at it from their point of view because hopefully one day soon you will be in there shoes. Their "brief" is the whole time they spent with you. If I am wrong guys, speak up!!!
Again, Doug asked for serious complaints, vending machaines within a cafeteria I don't feel are valid....he is also correct in the fact of admin reading these posts. As I said on another forum , and at that time opted to shut up, I obviously can't!!! But they do read them as was shown to me in black and white by my boss last week when i was confronted with this whole site. I think the admin could do themselves alot of justice and answer VALID compliants but why not just go to the source and avoid the middleman forums????
Ok, trying to shut up....did this help at all????
 

Billybob

New Member
Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

Actually, intructors have nothing to do with scheduling (at least to the extent that they can get you time off). Some instructors have voiced their opinions on the downslide of learning (due to no days off) and the resulting negativity among the student population. From what I was told (firsthand by one that voiced an opinion) is that it is an issue that is not of their concern. The simple fact of the matter is that flight lessons are tough learning, and the lessons degrade without small breaks in the routine. That's an educational principle that has been proven for, well, centuries. But, it's being ignored at the school with a result in A) Disenrollments B) Negative press C) poor reputation via word of mouth. When students are frustrated and tired are they going to recommend the school to others? Many right now are pushed to the point of shopping around due to the lack of flexibility in scheduling - they don't feel that they are being treated as customers. It's as if the customer turns into a nobody once the papers are signed.
 

Mavmb

Well-Known Member
Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

Pan Am Admin doesn't care. They're making plenty of money cause they collect over 60,000 or more from all of their students up front. Therefore, what students say doesn't matter to them. They've already got the students' money. All that matters to them is their advertising so they can get more people to sign on the dotted line.
 

JoeBlow

Well-Known Member
Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

[ QUOTE ]
As for the brief time, as I understand it, I think you guys are looking at it wrong. The brief time isn't the time you spend with the instructor after the flight, it's basically the whole instructor, flight and preflight and post....The instructors only get paid when they are actually flying (or teaching, or doing duty CFI). If you no show, call in sick, whatever, the instructor has just stood around for probably a couple of hours not getting paid. Look at it from their point of view because hopefully one day soon you will be in there shoes. Their "brief" is the whole time they spent with you. If I am wrong guys, speak up!!!


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes you are wrong! It says pre and post briefings, which is just that, the instructor giving ground time to the student before and after the flight. The student is being charged for something they don’t receive. Now I’m not stating that no one is getting any brief time but rather what if a student only gets a total of 5 minutes and pays for 1.4hr. That is wrong. And yes there are those that say it is your responsibility to get this time from your instructor, but if you fly twice a day and the instructor has the same type of schedule daily eventually the instructor will owe more time than they can or are willing to give. This is a way for the school to make extra money. At Embry-Riddle (I did fly there as well) the instructors have to charge the students a minimum of 0.1 of brief time after every flight. The minimum is put into place because the instructor is suppose to give a brief, and if the instructor has another activity scheduled immediately after their current student, they don’t have time to give any more than 0.1. To the point, the student only gets charged for the actual amount of time the instructor spends with the student on ground time. This is about the students and not the instructors, so why don’t you look at it from the students (customers) point of view since they are flipping the bill.
 

casaosa

New Member
Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

I'm actually not taking either side...obviously, I thought I knew what I was talking about but didn't, my mistake and I apolige. Believe me, I hear both sides to all the stories. My respect for both the students and instructors run parallel and I would like to think my friendship does also.
Now for my pet peeve with PAIFA...don't take credit where it isn't due!!!! i.e., the website where you claim to have placed an instructor in the business/corporate side of aviation. You all know you had nothing to do with it except for employing both the instructor and myself. You all know how he/she got that job.......
 

Tired

New Member
Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

In the lobby of the admin building in Phoenix they have a screen showing a list of people who recently left and where they went. The title of the page is "Recent Placements", however, about half of those people did it on there own. They didn't do Pan Am's program so there is no way Pan Am would help them find jobs.

Also on the website I saw that grads can get type ratings at a discount. Anybody know about that program?
 

FLDiver

New Member
Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

[ QUOTE ]
I've been following this board for the past few months and have noticed a dramatic increase in negative comments towards Pan Am.

Perhaps if we all step back for a moment, collect our thoughts and clearly list what changes you think need to be made at the school, maybe it'll actually happen.

Use this thread, clearly list what your situation is and suggest a possible solution.

Believe me, Pan Am monitors this forum far more than you realize.

Keep it short, concise and forward-looking and I think you'll have the best chance of having your situation resolved.

[/ QUOTE ]


Perhaps everyone (except the Pan Am Admin.) are starting to realize things and see things a little more clearly. I recall many people stating that Pan Am doesn't monitor these boards and the students don't have time to read them...this seems not to be the case..I believe Casosa can attests to that. I just read Tired's last post about Pan Am putting up a list of recent hires but only had a hand in half of them. I have stated this in that past as well, Pan Am likes to deceive people. If you were a brand new prospective student and saw the "recent hire" list...you would just assume that they were all Pan Am grads and would really be inclined to sign on the dotted line, wouldn't you?...Pan Am is good at deception.
Also, these boards can be used as a source of proof that Pan Am (Admin.) could give a crap about their students...since they DO monitor these boards, they are well aware of the multitude of complaints from ex-students, current students, and employees and have done absolutely nothing to change things around.
So, as far as having something productive to say...Brief Times need to be charged for "brief" time not flight time, students already pay enough just for the flight time. Students should pay for what they are getting, they shouldn't pay for what they aren't getting. A student could really care less what payment arrangement the instructor has with the school. It seems that Pan Am doesn't really pay their instructors directly, it seems that the students account bears all of this weight. Then Pan Am schedules instructors for back to back flights with little or no brief time for students. So, WHY are students paying so much for brief times that they dont get??? Pan Am needs to change how they pay their instructors. They need to pay them a flat rate per flight and then the instructor can put in seperate paperwork for extra ground or brief time. This post is getting a little lengthy so I will stop for now...many more thoughts to come !!!
 

FLDiver

New Member
Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

[ QUOTE ]

As for the brief time, as I understand it, I think you guys are looking at it wrong. The brief time isn't the time you spend with the instructor after the flight, it's basically the whole instructor, flight and preflight and post....The instructors only get paid when they are actually flying (or teaching, or doing duty CFI).

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you are wrong here !!! At the time I signed my death warrant, we were told and even signed a paper that stated that the "brief" charges to the students account was for the time that the instructor spent with you BEFORE and AFTER the flight..which usually added to a total time of about 10 minutes..sometimes more, most often...less. Usually my account was reduced by $40-60 per flight, in addition to paying for the aircraft which, at the time, was $96/hr. Does anyone at an FBO or other school pay this much for an Archer AND an instructor??? Why was I paying so much for something that I didn't really get??? I think we ALL know the answer to this!!!!!
 

guido161st

New Member
Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

casaosa- the vending machine thing was to get a point across, take it easy. Point is that something as little as that didn't even get changed. I can't even remember what it was for.
 

panampilot

New Member
Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

Here is how Pan Am has lately changed the whole brief time thing. Before as instructors we were scheduled back to back with little or no time to brief our student before or after the flight. Now, when we schedule the missions for the students we tell scheduling what mission they are on. Scheduling has a list of how much time each mission should take. For example let's say that a mission is supposed to take 2 hours of flight time. Scheduling automatically adds AT LEAST a half hour to the total time. So now the instructor has the plane for two hours but is scheduled with the student for AT LEAST 2 and a half hours.

This has helped dramatically in giving us as instructors more time to really teach this stuff on the ground and then plenty of time to demonstrate it in the air.

All of my students are much more happy with the whole briefing situation. They feel they are getting their money's worth. So, Pan Am does hear the complaints and yes they do make changes.
 

guido161st

New Member
Re: What\'s the beef? *Pan Am Admin Please Read*

Gee it only took two years!! At least it's a step in the right direction!! I wonder what made them change their mind? The admin never listened to the student commitee before- There's hope yet.
 
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