Weird Alaska Air turn back after block out

DE727UPS

Well-Known Member
I was on AS 875 from SEA to Kona yesterday. We block out and almost to the runway on taxi and the Capt comes on the PA and says operations has told them to return to the gate and didn't really say why. I'm thinking TSA issue but we block in and he says a crew member needed had to be replaced. I'm thinking FA over duty times or something (do they even have duty times?). Turns out the F/O was going to exceed 1000/year hard time FAR and nobody caught it. FA told me even if they took off they would have had to turn around for this. I was thinking no way, you'd just ASAP it before you'd turn around. But we hadn't got off the ground yet. Sounds like crew skeds screwed up pretty bad. They had to get a reserve F/O and we took a 2.5 hour delay (no airport hots?) I've been making good money complaining about Alaska Air snafus lately. You complain via email and they respond and award you a token amount towards your next flight. On this one I didn't even have to complain and they gave me $75. Not complaining....

But who's ever heard of nobody catching a 1000/hr a year limit part 121? I feel it's squarely on crew skeds as they should have that in the computer. I'm sure they will say it's a joint responsibility and the F/O will need to cover his butt. Hope he wasn't a probie. I can't believe people even work that much....
 

jtrain609

I'm a carnal, organic anagram.
I was on AS 875 from SEA to Kona yesterday. We block out and almost to the runway on taxi and the Capt comes on the PA and says operations has told them to return to the gate and didn't really say why. I'm thinking TSA issue but we block in and he says a crew member needed had to be replaced. I'm thinking FA over duty times or something (do they even have duty times?). Turns out the F/O was going to exceed 1000/year hard time FAR and nobody caught it. FA told me even if they took off they would have had to turn around for this. I was thinking no way, you'd just ASAP it before you'd turn around. But we hadn't got off the ground yet. Sounds like crew skeds screwed up pretty bad. They had to get a reserve F/O and we took a 2.5 hour delay (no airport hots?) I've been making good money complaining about Alaska Air snafus lately. You complain via email and they respond and award you a token amount towards your next flight. On this one I didn't even have to complain and they gave me $75. Not complaining....

But who's ever heard of nobody catching a 1000/hr a year limit part 121? I feel it's squarely on crew skeds as they should have that in the computer. I'm sure they will say it's a joint responsibility and the F/O will need to cover his butt. Hope he wasn't a probie. I can't believe people even work that much....
If they don't have a buffer on it, and dispatch planned a 2 minute taxi out in order to make it legal, it could happen. I've certainly been in positions where I'm within minutes of timing out on the way the flight is planned and scheduling says, "give it a try, we don't have anyone else to work the flight."

Twice now I've put the power up inside a minute of timing out.
 

broncoav8r

Well-Known Member
Garbage in, garbage out.

I’ve had CS in my previous life schedule a zero (yes ZERO) minute turn in LGA during a weather event to try to keep us legal. It took nearly 15 minutes of arguing that “no this isn’t going to work out no matter how optimistic you are”.

Your system is only as accurate as the data you put in.
 

jtrain609

I'm a carnal, organic anagram.
Garbage in, garbage out.

I’ve had CS in my previous life schedule a zero (yes ZERO) minute turn in LGA during a weather event to try to keep us legal. It took nearly 15 minutes of arguing that “no this isn’t going to work out no matter how optimistic you are”.

Your system is only as accurate as the data you put in.
Her poor shoes.
 

SrFnFly227

Well-Known Member
I've wondered how the airlines are dealing with the "new" rest/duty rules in regards to the 1000/year limit. When I was flying 121, it was 1000 in a calendar year and we would often have people getting reduced schedules in November and December so they didn't time out early for the year. Now it's 1000 in a rolling 365 days. In theory, that FO will now have the same problem every month. All he/she has to do is fly 83 hours and get pulled off for the rest of the month, every month.

Has this been a non issue since the role out of the new limits? Or are high utilization airlines having a problem every month?
 
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jtrain609

I'm a carnal, organic anagram.
I've wondered how the airlines are dealing with the "new" rest/duty rules in regards to the 1000/year limit. When I was flying 121, it was 1000 in a calendar year and we would often have people getting reduced schedules in November and December so they didn't time out early for the year. Now it's 1000 in a rolling 365 days. In theory, that FO will now have the same problem every month. All he/she has to do is fly 83 hours and get pulled off for the rest of the month, every month.

Has this been a non issue since the role out of the new limits? Or are high utilization airlines having a problem every month?
I mean, Part 117 has been in effect since like 2014, so this isn't exactly a new problem. Different airlines solve it in different ways, usually governed by their respective CBA's.
 

SrFnFly227

Well-Known Member
I mean, Part 117 has been in effect since like 2014, so this isn't exactly a new problem. Different airlines solve it in different ways, usually governed by their respective CBA's.
Yeah, I realize the rules aren’t new anymore, but that’s exactly why I’m asking. Old rules they would deal with it for December and then everyone was magically not tired anymore and pilots could fly 99 hours a month again starting Jan 1. New rules, that Alaska pilot may have a problem every trip forever because the limit never resets.

Now that everybody has been flying under the new rules for a while, I’m curious how it is being dealt with. Is it just something that is happening less than it used to so it’s not an issue?
 

bimmerphile

SuperCritical™ Member
I've wondered how the airlines are dealing with the "new" rest/duty rules in regards to the 1000/year limit. When I was flying 121, it was 1000 in a calendar year and we would often have people getting reduced schedules in November and December so they didn't time out early for the year. Now it's 1000 in a rolling 365 days. In theory, that FO will now have the same problem every month. All he/she has to do is fly 83 hours and get pulled off for the rest of the month, every month.

Has this been a non issue since the role out of the new limits? Or are high utilization airlines having a problem every month?
There's a guy at my shop that flew his arse off a year ago and timed out in November. He was off for the holidays and finally has a light schedule for January, scheduling kept putting him on an overnight here and there but he'd be back at 997 hours rolling again the next day. It was quite funny, but I do not have the perseverance to log those kind of hours anymore
 

JordanD

Honorary Member
My FO right now said he's been crediting 120s-140s most months with one or two days off, probably going to get him a month off at least for the 1,000. Sounds nice but damn... just not worth it to me, you'd be a zombie the rest of the year.
 

z987k

Well-Known Member
We've had crews told to divert because CS discovered en-route they were going to be in violation of rest rules.
I've caught stuff and then filed a report asking how this wasn't caught by the computers, and the response I got was "oh they turned the warnings off." Why that's possible I'm not sure.... that's actually happened with our flight releases to. Find FAR violations in routing and "oh they turned that flag off".
 

ClarkGriswold

Non Nutritive Cereal Varnish Engineer
I was on AS 875 from SEA to Kona yesterday. We block out and almost to the runway on taxi and the Capt comes on the PA and says operations has told them to return to the gate and didn't really say why. I'm thinking TSA issue but we block in and he says a crew member needed had to be replaced. I'm thinking FA over duty times or something (do they even have duty times?). Turns out the F/O was going to exceed 1000/year hard time FAR and nobody caught it. FA told me even if they took off they would have had to turn around for this. I was thinking no way, you'd just ASAP it before you'd turn around. But we hadn't got off the ground yet. Sounds like crew skeds screwed up pretty bad. They had to get a reserve F/O and we took a 2.5 hour delay (no airport hots?) I've been making good money complaining about Alaska Air snafus lately. You complain via email and they respond and award you a token amount towards your next flight. On this one I didn't even have to complain and they gave me $75. Not complaining....

But who's ever heard of nobody catching a 1000/hr a year limit part 121? I feel it's squarely on crew skeds as they should have that in the computer. I'm sure they will say it's a joint responsibility and the F/O will need to cover his butt. Hope he wasn't a probie. I can't believe people even work that much....
Bought cheap tickets on AK a couple years ago, have been flying almost free since due to stupid F ups on their part. It helps they pretty much give tickets away too. Last year we (3) flew round trip to lax, for ~$20 each after our discounts. I pretty much bank on something happening now on them. Haven't proven me wrong yet.
 

Cory Trevor

Well-Known Member
I had someone from crew support call me and tell me I was ok to finish a flight because there was a lot of time between blocking out and wheel movement, only to have them call back and say that they missed the FDP time since I was extended the day before and we had to be wheels up in 15 minutes or I’d time out
 

Richman

Well-Known Member
At SouthernJets we had a block hour limiting mechanism to prevent timing out at the end of the year. Same mechanism now, but on a rolling basis.
 
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