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VFR into a class E extension airport when primary airport is IFR?

Discussion in 'Technical Talk' started by smig, Sep 27, 2017.

  1. smig

    smig Well-Known Member

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    Help settle a debate. Look at skyvector and find KPOU airport. Inside the class E extension for KPOU is 44N, an uncontrolled field with no weather reporting.

    https://skyvector.com/

    Scenario: There is a patch of fog at KPOU, they are IFR with 1/2 mile visibility. Everywhere else is VFR including 44N airport. Can you legally takeoff and/or land from 44N based on flight visibility with KPOU being IFR?
     
  2. Roger Roger

    Roger Roger Navajo Whisperer

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    Depends, is anyone gonna snitch on you?

    And remember, snitches get stitches.
     
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  3. z987k

    z987k TeamANC

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    Yes.
    You might as well be asking if the weather in Hong Kong effects if you can take off and land in new York.
    Also part 91 is flight visibilty not reported.
     
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  4. deadstick

    deadstick Well-Known Member

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    Looking at the AFD, it’s always either D or E to the surface. You just have to have to Class E weather mins at that airport, but to go to POU you’d need a special VFR clearance and, at 1/2 sm vis, you wouldn’t get it. You’d have to remain clear of that airspace.

    Another way to look at it: who are you told to contact for clearance delivery? POU has no control.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2017
  5. z987k

    z987k TeamANC

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    No, if it's fog he can fly over it in that airspace. Without a special.
     
  6. inigo88

    inigo88 Composite-lover

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    Good question. Found an interesting thread on another forum on this topic:
    https://www.airwarriors.com/communi...urface-area-extension-to-airport.23416/page-4

    The tower at Palomar (CRQ) was denying VFR aircraft entry into the Class E surface area protecting the ILS approach when the airport was IMC due to the "marine layer" advection fog which comes from the pacific ocean just west of the airport. However the Class E surface area just east of the Class D was completely clear and unlimited.

    Ultimately it comes down to FAR Part 91. There is no communication requirement for VFR in Class E, and the VFR weather minimums prescribed for Class E airspace exist to give approaching IFR and non-participating VFR traffic time to see and avoid each other when the IFR aircraft breaks out of the clouds.

    In the original thread, the confusion came from some LOA between CRQ Tower and Socal TRACON about which facility "owned" the class E extension and the misunderstanding snowballed. Apparently the OP contacted someone at the FAA who re-educated the controllers and everyone lived happily ever after. :)
     
  7. gotWXdagain

    gotWXdagain Highly Visible Member

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    Can you ensure adequate flight visibility and cloud clearance at the satellite field for the airspace depicted? Note that part 91 VFR you "ensure" with the Mk. 1 eyeballs.
     
  8. MidlifeFlyer

    MidlifeFlyer Well-Known Member

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    Practicing pattern work at 44N in a Piper Cub with no radio with the weather clear and a million at 44N, why would I care or even know about fog at KPOU?

    Im not sure I understand the argument.
     
  9. Flyinthrew

    Flyinthrew Well-Known Member

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    Quoted for "shoulda been the only answer in the thread".

    You don't even need a radio or transponder much less an IFR clearance.
     
  10. deadstick

    deadstick Well-Known Member

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    Right. Flight vis for the transition, but to land at or depart from that primary airport, the reported vis is controlling.
     
  11. z987k

    z987k TeamANC

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    Not under 91. 91 is always flight vis. Even for an approach.
     
  12. deadstick

    deadstick Well-Known Member

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    Not for getting special vfr.

    91.157c1
    It looks like the caveat of 157c2 (that allows the pilot to determine vis) would be in the case of getting a SVFR clearance at 44N where there is no wx reporting.
     
  13. killbilly

    killbilly Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens

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    I may have missed a thread/fork in the discussion....but if 44N is VFR (as in the original post) why would he call for SVFR anywhere?
     
  14. Flyinthrew

    Flyinthrew Well-Known Member

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    I think maybe transiting the delta. People got seriously wrapped around the axle on this one.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  15. smig

    smig Well-Known Member

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    Not according to this legal interpretation...
    https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...12/baginski - (2012) legal interpretation.pdf

    According to that interpretation, takeoff/landing at a primary airport would require the reported visibility to be VFR.

    As far as my original question, I agree with all those who said landing at the satelitte airport is legal based on flight visibility. This was a debate I walked into at my local airport and I stated why I thought it was legal and then showed the regs. Some of the guys were still disagreeing with me and saying once the primary airport goes IFR, the entire airspace goes IFR including airports in the satellite area.
     
  16. CFI A&P

    CFI A&P Well-Known Member

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    Since 44N has no weather observation (ATIS, AWOS, ASOS) how would you know the conditions ? - Through a local PIREP. If human observation says it is VFR at 44N, why worry about the other airports in the area?
     
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