USAIR and GOJETS

Douglas

Old School KSUX
I didn't want to hijack a different thread so can the community explain to me how applying to GoJets is super evil to the TSA guys, while applying to USAIR is awesome and not evil to the America West pilots and those that are still furloughed?

I've no agenda, just curious as heck.
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
Say what?

There are about 35 former AWA pilots on furlough. All of them have been offered class dates for the past years but have turned down the offer until they open up the PHX domicile.

Let's recap.

USAirways (the name changed in the 1996): 1 holding company. 1 certificate. 1 seniority list. All furloughed offered recall.

GoJets: 1 holding company. 3 companies. 3 seniority lists. Whipsawing flying back and forth.
 

Douglas

Old School KSUX
Say what?

There are about 35 former AWA pilots on furlough. All of them have been offered class dates for the past years but have turned down the offer until they open up the PHX domicile.

.
That's cool that they've been offered class dates.
Why can't they bid PHX, was that not a "west" domicile before?

So they are operating off of one seniority list now?
 

Soul Brotha'

Well-Known Member
Grab a six pack and have a great night. At B6 we have many of Eastie guys who will tell you a great tale of the drama which is USAir vs. America West. One of my last trips I thought I was gonna take a permanent dirt nap listening to that soap opera.
 

Douglas

Old School KSUX
GoJets: 1 holding company. 3 companies. 3 seniority lists. Whipsawing flying back and forth.
Ok I see how that can be the-suck, but then wouldn't it be advisable to stay away from the other two as well? Which I don't hear (read) that at all in these threads.
 

Epic

Don't take this guy seriously.
...... And GoJet is a total alter-ego; the crooked management at TSA pulled a few guys from TSA to make GoJet on their terms before opening it up for "hiring". I mean "hiring" as in telling TSA guys to come over to fly a slightly bigger airplane and nearly-instant upgrade, undercutting all their peers (This is where a lot of the scab label comes from).

GoJet is also notorious for firing countless people during the training process without warning.

Every time they furlough at TSA, they tell the pilots to fill out an application, walk across the hall (literally, it's the same building, run by the same people), take a pay-cut, and start over from the bottom of the list at GoJet. (Did I mention GoJet declined to let the pilots keep even half their seniority?)

GoJet contract with United was made by telling United: "Whatever Air Wisconsin is offering, we'll do it for less." Way to undercut and displace an entire company, bro.

Lastly to my quick summary why GoJet is a piece of §h!t: The standard of telling the airlines: "Hey! We don't care how much you pay us, we just want to fly!" is detrimental to everyone who flys or wants to fly for 121, bringing down the QOL to something of absolute deplorable conditions. (ATP flight school is with them in this boat too.)

This is all just a blanket-summary, if you want to know the details, do some reading on locked threads.
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
Quick correction. Airways actually has 2 seniority lists. Well, actually maybe 3. There is the AAA list. There is the AWA list. And there is a list of people hired after the merger. That said, it is all one certificate and there is a process in place (haha) to get to one list.
 

SlumTodd_Millionaire

Socialist Pig Member
This thread again? Really? I swear, thirty years from now when I'm retiring, newbie RJ drivers will still be arguing about the "evils" of GoJet, even though they weren't even alive when it all started, just because it's "cool" to hate GoJet. What a waste of energy. :rolleyes:
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
It's amazing how now that you've escaped the regional world where your livelihood can be ripped away at any point in time because somebody is willing to • themselves out for a little less, how little you care about this. I'll fully admit that the issue with GoJet is a dead one but that's no reason to simply move on and forget about it. Educating new pilots about the issue (that is potentially very much still alive in the industry) is not a waste of energy.

I'd expect better from trade union leadership. Well, actually, I wouldn't... but I should.
 

SlumTodd_Millionaire

Socialist Pig Member
It's amazing how now that you've escaped the regional world where your livelihood can be ripped away at any point in time because somebody is willing to themselves out for a little less, how little you care about this.
Yeah, that's why. :rolleyes: It couldn't possibly be because of this:

I'll fully admit that the issue with GoJet is a dead one
Bingo! Dead issue. We lost it a long time ago. You're pissing into the wind, beating a dead horse, yada, yada, yada.

but that's no reason to simply move on and forget about it.
Forget? No, absolutely not. Learning from history is quite important. But teaching people about what's happened historically is quite different from the active GoJet hatred that goes on around here. People should most certainly "move on."
 

jtrain609

I'm a carnal, organic anagram.
Yeah, that's why. :rolleyes: It couldn't possibly be because of this:



Bingo! Dead issue. We lost it a long time ago. You're pissing into the wind, beating a dead horse, yada, yada, yada.



Forget? No, absolutely not. Learning from history is quite important. But teaching people about what's happened historically is quite different from the active GoJet hatred that goes on around here. People should most certainly "move on."
Maybe you got beat up a little too much at Pinnacle, but you can't possibly argue that GoJets is a good company to go to, can you? Their pay is substandard and their work rules suck as far as I understand. It's a job, but it's not a good job.
 

SlumTodd_Millionaire

Socialist Pig Member
Maybe you got beat up a little too much at Pinnacle, but you can't possibly argue that GoJets is a good company to go to, can you? Their pay is substandard and their work rules suck as far as I understand. It's a job, but it's not a good job.
Nah, I always tell people that GoJet isn't a good company, and I wouldn't recommend working there, but I'd say the same thing about other companies, as well. The problem I have with the GoJet debate isn't that people are saying not to go there, it's the reasons that they say not to go there. The "scab" word gets thrown around, for example. If people want to talk about crappy pay, bad work rules, and ruthless managers, then please, go right ahead. Those are good things to get out in the open for people trying to make decisions about where to go to work. But claiming that GoJet is some sort of alter-ego, that they're "stealing jobs," that their pilots are pseudo-scabs, or anything else of the like, is just outdated nonsense at this point.
 

higney85

Property of Scheduling
Nah, I always tell people that GoJet isn't a good company, and I wouldn't recommend working there, but I'd say the same thing about other companies, as well. The problem I have with the GoJet debate isn't that people are saying not to go there, it's the reasons that they say not to go there. The "scab" word gets thrown around, for example. If people want to talk about crappy pay, bad work rules, and ruthless managers, then please, go right ahead. Those are good things to get out in the open for people trying to make decisions about where to go to work. But claiming that GoJet is some sort of alter-ego, that they're "stealing jobs," that their pilots are pseudo-scabs, or anything else of the like, is just outdated nonsense at this point.
What would you say about silver (gulfstream 2.0)? It's nothing personal (we have met, all good) but it seems to be the same kind of overall industry problem and equally valuable point of discussion. As long as someone (read: 121 carrier) can do it for "less", they grow. The race to the bottom in a time where the bottom should be leapfrogging the top in all aspects contractually, amazes me. We don't have entry into the regional market by growth OR new talent. Let's not go political or "pilot shortage". The issue is simple, we don't have growth but majors are beginning to hire. We don't have "new talent", but we seem to have existing talent willing to do "it" for less with the hope of PIC time. The race to the bottom (read: fight for PIC time with no respect for pay/benefits/QOL) seems to always win. I have never appreciated gojets, and this 121 race has me close to the end of my rope. The whole mindset of ALPA is to "raise the bar" using the rest of the industry. That doesn't work with gojet undercutting everyone. You want a realistic "look and see"? Compass is only 5-6 years old and the "senior" cadre has both flow and relative seniority at Compass. Do I make more right now then them? Sure, but they are ALPA and are negotiating with the idea of "beating" our rates. Their bonus is the fact that payroll doesn't contain pilots who are "topped out" like comair. If you could look into their pool you will see a high number of 9E/9L/XJ pilots. Why? because the view is the fact that the company is actually run as an airline instead of a staffing company at the lowest cost. Where are the comair 700's going from comair? Gojet. Why? Cheap. What was the problem with comair? NOT A DARN THING OTHER THAN MONEY! The pilots at Comair stayed and gave their best to the end. Comair operated a flight from DTW-MEM that I happened to try and hit often to get home, every time, they made it work and got me on (most times up front). I had half the longevity of the FO (Me:CA) and never once was given the 3rd degree.

Seems to me that quality vs. quantity in the regional biz are not the same.

I'm just trying to introduce the pot and the kettle.

I was only once given the opportunity to offer a JS to a Gojet guy (as an FO with the 9E MEM CA that NOTORIOUSLY doesn't allow a JS). I was given the slip and told "It's signed, you talked me into it, but you deliver it". I went up to the gate and the JS'er told me ALPA was a bunch of retards, plus a verbal lashing on a personal level. I was a rep at the time. Ripped up the slip and haven't looked back.

Call me what you want, but Gojets has only hurt the 121 Regional jet model. I tried to understand the G7 mindset and give benefit of the doubt, only to be verbally berated in front of passengers for an ALPA lanyard with a signed permission slip.Call it a fluke, but law of Primacy prevailed.

For once the rest of the group reached a point where a pilot could make a livable and future sustainable wage... Nope, lowest bidder called in from the dirt.


Ban me if you want. Rant over. All this shows is the fact that the regional model is no more guaranteed than a 91 job.
 

SlumTodd_Millionaire

Socialist Pig Member
What would you say about silver (gulfstream 2.0)?
Honestly, I don't keep in touch with anyone there, so I don't know enough about their operation to either recommend them or condemn them as a possible employer. It's been over a decade since I worked at Gulfstream 1.0, so my knowledge of their operation is sorely outdated at this point.

It's nothing personal (we have met, all good) but it seems to be the same kind of overall industry problem and equally valuable point of discussion. As long as someone (read: 121 carrier) can do it for "less", they grow. The race to the bottom in a time where the bottom should be leapfrogging the top in all aspects contractually, amazes me. We don't have entry into the regional market by growth OR new talent. Let's not go political or "pilot shortage". The issue is simple, we don't have growth but majors are beginning to hire. We don't have "new talent", but we seem to have existing talent willing to do "it" for less with the hope of PIC time. The race to the bottom (read: fight for PIC time with no respect for pay/benefits/QOL) seems to always win. I have never appreciated gojets, and this 121 race has me close to the end of my rope. The whole mindset of ALPA is to "raise the bar" using the rest of the industry. That doesn't work with gojet undercutting everyone. You want a realistic "look and see"? Compass is only 5-6 years old and the "senior" cadre has both flow and relative seniority at Compass. Do I make more right now then them? Sure, but they are ALPA and are negotiating with the idea of "beating" our rates. Their bonus is the fact that payroll doesn't contain pilots who are "topped out" like comair. If you could look into their pool you will see a high number of 9E/9L/XJ pilots. Why? because the view is the fact that the company is actually run as an airline instead of a staffing company at the lowest cost. Where are the comair 700's going from comair? Gojet. Why? Cheap. What was the problem with comair? NOT A DARN THING OTHER THAN MONEY! The pilots at Comair stayed and gave their best to the end. Comair operated a flight from DTW-MEM that I happened to try and hit often to get home, every time, they made it work and got me on (most times up front). I had half the longevity of the FO (Me:CA) and never once was given the 3rd degree.

Seems to me that quality vs. quantity in the regional biz are not the same.

I'm just trying to introduce the pot and the kettle.

I was only once given the opportunity to offer a JS to a Gojet guy (as an FO with the 9E MEM CA that NOTORIOUSLY doesn't allow a JS). I was given the slip and told "It's signed, you talked me into it, but you deliver it". I went up to the gate and the JS'er told me ALPA was a bunch of retards, plus a verbal lashing on a personal level. I was a rep at the time. Ripped up the slip and haven't looked back.

Call me what you want, but Gojets has only hurt the 121 Regional jet model. I tried to understand the G7 mindset and give benefit of the doubt, only to be verbally berated in front of passengers for an ALPA lanyard with a signed permission slip.Call it a fluke, but law of Primacy prevailed.

For once the rest of the group reached a point where a pilot could make a livable and future sustainable wage... Nope, lowest bidder called in from the dirt.


Ban me if you want. Rant over. All this shows is the fact that the regional model is no more guaranteed than a 91 job.
I understand your frustration and your point, but none of it is really limited to GoJet. You can point to Mesa just as easily, or Republic, or others and talk about piss-poor pay rates, work rules, etc. GoJet is not alone in that area.
 

HVYMETALDRVR

Well-Known Member
The other big thing with GoJet is the quick upgrade... therefore higher time guys will go there as well not just the newbies...
 

dvtpilot

Well-Known Member
Doesn't silver mainly do EAS flying that most regionals don't really seem to have an interest in anyway?
 

block30

Well-Known Member
Nah, I always tell people that GoJet isn't a good company, and I wouldn't recommend working there, but I'd say the same thing about other companies, as well. The problem I have with the GoJet debate isn't that people are saying not to go there, it's the reasons that they say not to go there. The "scab" word gets thrown around, for example. If people want to talk about crappy pay, bad work rules, and ruthless managers, then please, go right ahead. Those are good things to get out in the open for people trying to make decisions about where to go to work. But claiming that GoJet is some sort of alter-ego, that they're "stealing jobs," that their pilots are pseudo-scabs, or anything else of the like, is just outdated nonsense at this point.
Did you fly for Gulfstream?
 
Top