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Update: UPS flight dispatchers are asking to be paid like counterparts at Delta, American

Altimeter

Well-Known Member
Altimeter,,,, a little off topic, but you said you voted in a TWU contract that caused dispatchers to get laid off. I’m don’t recall hearing of any layoffs in the recent past at any TWU represented airline. And I believe you said you worked for a major. Did I miss something?
Yea the timing was super weird for me, but early 2017 I was at XJT and we voted in a contract to be one group. Then I punched my golden ticket a few months later. As far as furloughs, the bottom 10 or so got the hammer. Some other XJT guys on here could for sure give better details. Luckily attrition and some folks retiring saved a few jobs at the bottom.
 

TXDX

Active Member
Altimeter,,,, a little off topic, but you said you voted in a TWU contract that caused dispatchers to get laid off. I’m don’t recall hearing of any layoffs in the recent past at any TWU represented airline. And I believe you said you worked for a major. Did I miss something?
There was at AA back in the early 2000's after 9/11.
 

pljenkins

Resident Knucklehead
He apparently doesn't like us riff raff on his lawn.

I had first hand experience of this. My dad retired in 2000 with a pension that made my income here look small. Right when he was settling into the retirement gig along comes 9/11 and the inevitable wave of bankruptcies and pension raids. Suddenly my Old Man went from bigly income to social security benefits. United basically said, "Hey, thanks for your 32 years of service but well, we're broke, so go eff yourself."

Pensions are great if you work for the government. Pensions in today's private corporate environment? No way you're seeing that money.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
He apparently doesn't like us riff raff on his lawn.

I had first hand experience of this. My dad retired in 2000 with a pension that made my income here look small. Right when he was settling into the retirement gig along comes 9/11 and the inevitable wave of bankruptcies and pension raids. Suddenly my Old Man went from bigly income to social security benefits. United basically said, "Hey, thanks for your 32 years of service but well, we're broke, so go eff yourself."

Pensions are great if you work for the government. Pensions in today's private corporate environment? No way you're seeing that money.
Didnt UAL convert all its pensions to being based on employee stock, or ESOP? So when stocks dropped to nothing, so did the pension value?
 
Didnt UAL convert all its pensions to being based on employee stock, or ESOP? So when stocks dropped to nothing, so did the pension value?
UAL won their case in the bankruptcy court to terminate all four of their employee pension plans. PBGC took over the plans. They also changed what type of pension plans for existing/current employees would be after the BK. In getting rid of the pension debt, they also gave PBGC a stake in the company to sweeten the deal. UAL had already stopped contributing to two of the pension plans as it was and that was on top of the two pay cuts and other benefit cuts that all the employees had already endured plus all the furloughs during the bankruptcy. They just stopped paying the benefits and called it a "suspension". Suspension my ass. They then came up with the idea to change the plan into an employee participation plan for those still employed there. Those who were already retired....bend over. They were going to offer us "convertible notes" which never happened and there was no way for that to happen in the first place (smoke and mirrors) and we eventually lost our appeal in the BK court and if you look at any of the bankruptcy payments/settlements....paltry does not begin to describe them.

The pilots alone lost a good third to half of their pension payments (depending on how long you had been employed). Same for the other employee groups. That also included the benefits paid to their spouses if they were deceased or became deceased at some point. Remember too, that this was all after we had already lost our asses on the worthless stock that UAL had shoved us into, in exchange for cutting our pay and benefits with that employee owners stake bull crap, before the BK. We got literally pennies on the dollar for the stock when we cashed it in. It wasn't worth the price of a roll of toilet paper. Those who waited to sell it after the BK was filed, couldn't sell or even give it away. Then they had the nerve to offer us yet more stock options during the BK. lol Meanwhile, Tilton never lost a dime and was paid millions for his retirement. The only thing that helped to take away the sting, was the class action lawsuit that the senior pilots filed and won down the road, against ALPA.

You wanna hear the worst? The pilots, mechanics, ground employees and FAs got together and collected/raised monies for the families of the crews who were murdered on 9/11 so that they could survive/manage since UAL didn't give a f..k about them.
 
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MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
UAL won their case in the bankruptcy court to terminate all four of their employee pension plans. PBGC took over the plans. They also changed what type of pension plans for existing/current employees would be after the BK. In getting rid of the pension debt, they also gave PBGC a stake in the company to sweeten the deal. UAL had already stopped contributing to two of the pension plans as it was and that was on top of the two pay cuts and other benefit cuts that all the employees had already endured plus all the furloughs during the bankruptcy. They just stopped paying the benefits and called it a "suspension". Suspension my ass. They then came up with the idea to change the plan into an employee participation plan for those still employed there. Those who were already retired....bend over. They were going to offer us "convertible notes" which never happened and there was no way for that to happen in the first place (smoke and mirrors) and we eventually lost our appeal n the BK court and if you look at any of the bankruptcy payments/settlements....paltry does not begin to describe them.

The pilots alone lost a good third to alone half of their pension payments (depending on how long you had been employed). Same for the other employee groups. That also included the benefits paid to their spouses if they were deceased or became deceased at some point. Remember too, that this was all after we had already lost our asses on the worthless stock that UAL had shoved us into, in exchange for cutting our pay and benefits with that employee owners stake bull crap, before the BK. We got literally pennies on the dollar for the stock when we cashed it in. It wasn't worth the price of a roll of toilet paper. Those who waited to sell it after the BK was filed, couldn't sell or even give it away. Then they had the nerve to offer us yet more stock options during the BK. lol Meanwhile, Tilton never lost a dime and was paid millions for his retirement. The only thing that helped to take away the sting, was the class action lawsuit that the senior pilots filed and won down the road, against ALPA.

You wanna hear the worst? The pilots, mechanics, ground employees and FAs got together and collected/raised monies for the families of the crews who were murdered on 9/11 so that they could survive/manage since UAL didn't give a f..k about them.
Wow. Unreal. Talk about a management that didn't give two craps about its employees, as they got a smooth landing under their golden parachutes.

What was the class action against ALPA about, with regards to the BK?
 
Wow. Unreal. Talk about a management that didn't give two craps about its employees, as they got a smooth landing under their golden parachutes.

What was the class action against ALPA about, with regards to the BK?
Over two thousand of the senior pilots (both retired and active) filed a class action suit against ALPA because of the way they had handled the split up of retirement payments under the bankruptcy. In point was the allocation of the pension and retirement benefits to junior pilots at the expense of the senior pilots, who had accrued considerable benefits resulting from way more years of service and much higher salaries. We settled at believe it was 44 or 45 million. It had dragged through the court system for almost 3 1/2 years. The funny part was then ALPA turned around and tried to sue UAL for the money. lol While in the BK, UAL came up with the new 401K plan. That's were the wonderful convertible notes b.s. began.

What happened was that ALPA in it's brilliance, decided to pay all the Junior pilots the same as all the senior pilots. At the time, there were several junior plots working/serving at ALPA (and you can guess whose interest they were looking out for - sure as hell wasn't us) and if you looked at the seniority list at that time, there were way more junior pilots on the property than there were senior pilots on the line due to retirements and some senior pilots just bailing. We had obviously been paying into the pension plan for decades and ALPA was rewarding all the junior guys, even pilots who were there two years, with the same amount of compensation. That went over like the steaming pile of crap that it was. What it meant was that we, the senior pilots, had already lost our asses in our terminated pension plan, but the junior guys lost almost nothing and were unfairly being compensated with what was really due to us. Basically, ALPA took more than $200 million from the senior pilots for benefits that we had already earned/accumulated in our pension plan and gave it to the junior pilots for benefits they hadn't even earned yet. So much for ALPA's idea of fair representation.
 
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FM-2 Fan

Well-Known Member
Ask the retired United pilots how valuable that pension is.
He apparently doesn't like us riff raff on his lawn.

I had first hand experience of this. My dad retired in 2000 with a pension that made my income here look small. Right when he was settling into the retirement gig along comes 9/11 and the inevitable wave of bankruptcies and pension raids. Suddenly my Old Man went from bigly income to social security benefits. United basically said, "Hey, thanks for your 32 years of service but well, we're broke, so go eff yourself."

Pensions are great if you work for the government. Pensions in today's private corporate environment? No way you're seeing that money.
All good points. However, given the insolvency of certain state governments, I don't know how sure their pensions are.
 

Stone Cold

Well-Known Member
So I only made it to page 3 reading this, and just wanted to say y'all are just like us pilots...you'll eat your own in a heartbeat, unfortunately.

Best of luck in the negotiations, UPS dispatchers!