Update: UPS flight dispatchers are asking to be paid like counterparts at Delta, American

Atlanta

Well-Known Member
Yes pilot groups at different airlines make less. See Spirit v. Delta or JetBlue v. United same for dispatchers.
All I am saying is the notion of industry standard across the board is great in theory. Do all Airlines makes the same amount of money at the end of every year? No
 

Atlanta

Well-Known Member
Ok, it appears a few of you are caught up on this word “deserve” but you are misinterpreting my use of this word and it’s application. It’s not a personal issue here, this isn’t about me. Let me explain more clearly where I’m coming from.

The major airline industry has a “standard”. It is defined by an established norm across the board between like groups in the industry. This goes for pilots, dispatchers, maintenance groups, and so forth. When I say we “deserve” industry standard, I simply mean that we should be in line with our peers based on the established standard.

Can you imagine a pilot group at one major airline simply sitting back and accepting far less pay than their peers, without fighting for at least what is standard amongst their peers doing the same exact work? Why would anyone expect a dispatch group or any other group for that matter to do that?

In poor economic times UPS dispatchers received a leading contract but now, during record profits we are supposed to lie down and accept substandard compensation? I don’t think so.

I think that the majority of us have fought our way to get to a major by similar means. We’ve taken jobs we didn’t want, lived paycheck to paycheck, made compromises for not only ourselves but our families, all just for the shot at making it to a top level job. There’s a lot of blood, sweat and tears that goes into it. Just ask the pilot group. We all start at the bottom and claw our way to hopefully the job of our dreams. I got the job of my dreams, and I worked really hard to get it. I’ll always remember the road that it took to get here and be appreciative for what I have. That doesn’t mean I need to lay down in the mud and accept substandard compensation as compared to my peers. I certainly don’t need anyone’s judgment. I can tell you that when the shoe is on the other foot, you’ll have our support.

I’m grateful for the group I work with, as well as many on this board who’ve gotten to experience this crazy ride with me. There’s been a lot of help received and help given and I’ll continue to pay it forward. That’s what this place is supposed to be about.








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Substandard compensation? That reminds me of Latrell Sprewell saying he couldn’t feed his family on a 12 million dollar contract.
Commutair is substandard.
 

Atlanta

Well-Known Member
I don’t believe anyone on this forum doesn’t support the UPS fight for a new better contract ( except CRJ). I personally don’t think it’s wise to complain about what you don’t have compared to someone else. I believe that’s called jealousy
 

womanpilot73

Well-Known Member
Nobody is complaining here. That’s not what it’s about at all. It is surprising to me that some latch onto their ideas that this is coming from a place of negativity and refuse to have an open mind to what’s actually being said here by several members.

You have an opinion and a stance that appears to have no room for flexibility and understanding of what is being said here and of what the big picture is, even after attempts to provide more clarity, and that’s ok. That’s your prerogative. But I’m done trying to further explain our position here as well.

Thanks to fellow JC members and peers for the support. We will continue the good fight.




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manniax

Well-met in the Ka-tet
My ideas are rooted in economics not feelings. So yes I am not flexible when it comes to cold hard facts.
Economics are why the dispatchers at large US airlines voted in unions. If we decided to let the airlines decide how much we were worth we'd be making a lot less money and working a lot more hours per year. It's very rare to see an airline management team step up at negotiation time and agree that a work group is underpaid and needs a big raise. Yes, dispatchers at different airlines do make different wages, but the wages at the biggest US airlines (AA, UA, DL, and WN) are very similar right now. Since UPS dispatchers (1) perform a similar job with long-haul widebody aircraft on domestic and international routes, (2) used to be paid more than any of those major airline dispatchers when their last contract went into effect, and (3) work for an extremely profitable company, I don't think it's unreasonable for them to expect compensation on par (at the very least) with what dispatchers at major airlines are currently earning.
 
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Altimeter

Well-Known Member
My ideas are rooted in economics not feelings. So yes I am not flexible when it comes to cold hard facts.
None of this matters.

1. Most of us don’t know exactly what their payscale is. (Other than 26% low, apparently)
2. Even more of us don’t know what their company is offering.
3. If you’re reading this you’re either at a major and probably don’t care that much, at a regional and would do anything to be at UPS, or at UPS and can’t or maybe shouldn’t be convinced otherwise.

This seems to be a place of Kumbaya Kool Aide drinking instead of being able to present unpopular ideas, to have an actual discussion.
More power to whoever for whatever!
 

womanpilot73

Well-Known Member
My ideas are rooted in economics not feelings. So yes I am not flexible when it comes to cold hard facts.
Might I suggest a fact checker? There are many schools of thought as to “what makes the world go around” based on various interpretations of facts. You appear locked into tunnel vision of your facts, but what if your facts are incorrect? Incomplete? A one sided view without being open to other interpretations doesn’t leave much room for growth. All I’m saying is that you aren’t the all-knowing so there’s a chance you might be wrong in your assessments here.

Sigh... Thanks for wishing us well at the end of the day.


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ovrntfr8

Well-Known Member
Atlanta, you'll make management in no time if you aren't already. It's not simply economics friend. There are two sides, the economic company side beholden to the stockholder and the employee side. As you know, the company wants to pay nothing and the employees would like to make enough to retire in less than 5 yrs. Neither of which is feasible.


If it was strictly about economics, there would be a set formula to follow for every one of our companies. But it's not, therefore we have a union. In order for the company to be able to exist and continue, the union forces them to pay a fair wage in order to retain good employees. Without unions, none of you would have any affordable insurance coverage or retirement programs, and likely far lower rates of pay.


UPS has never filed for bankruptcy or posted a negative earning unlike every major passenger airline. Following your contention, the major airline dxers should've just been willing to take whatever cuts that were proposed and lean forward to make the company run without complaint. What level of pay would that leave you at? UPS having never struggled financially then, should be the industry leader. Due to simple economics and how the employees should just be willing to work while MISmanagement drags their companies through the mud would leave the pax airlines rates at regional levels.


You and your career and current pay, as well as all of ours, has been a direct product of the unions representing us. There's a saying, "a company gets the union it deserves." That's the only tool employees have to maintain our dignity and our careers in this industry.


You referenced that airlines make different pay rates. True to a point, they're comparable within their sectors; regional to regional, national to national, and major to major. Is the job significantly different? Again, to some level. I would absolutely love to see regional pay increase. Been there done that. It's pathetic. And due to simple economics, that's where the major pax airlines pay rates would be today after the bankruptcies were it not for the unions.


So, industry standard does exist. You need it, UPS employees need it. Having the benchmark has protected your major career as well as my own. (Not a dxer) Simple economics are not a viable way to accept compensation rates. We cannot trust the C+ Wharton biz grads that end up running airlines, because they're not good enough to run reputable companies effectively, be allowed to dictate the worth of the employees. I'm grateful for the bargaining agreement my union has secured for me and my peers. It is critical that we maintain the industry standard FOR YOUR job. From the sounds of it, you'd be ok accepting far less compensation when the economics dictate and assume the company will just make it right when the numbers improve. Not gonna happen. Once we accept lower rates, that's where they stay.

Many of us are still working below 1994 pay rates due to concessionary contract rates and it's been one hell of a fight to get back. The economics show pax airlines making record profits. However, I don't see them openly offering higher pay and benefits simply because their economic numbers are the highest ever.

Support the UPS dx union in their fight. Industry standard is not welfare or a handout. It's the method to secure YOUR next pay scale and benefits. Unions have a purpose in the airlines. It's to protect ALL of us, seperately and collectively.

Good luck and huge support for Spirit and UPS dx!
 
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Flying Saluki

Well-Known Member
Without unions, none of you would have any affordable insurance coverage or retirement programs, and likely far lower rates of pay.

You and your career and current pay, as well as all of ours, has been a direct product of the unions representing us. There's a saying, "a company gets the union it deserves." That's the only tool employees have to maintain our dignity and our careers in this industry.

And due to simple economics, that's where the major pax airlines pay rates would be today after the bankruptcies were it not for the unions.
Everyone says "without the unions, we'd never have....(insert favorite perk here). But, to be fair, we don't know what a non-unionized airline industry would look like, because we've never had one, at least not in the deregulated-era.

What I have observed over the last 30 years is that unions negotiate "industry leading contracts" in good times, and then it all gets taken away + more in bad times. When the good times roll again. the unions try to get it all back, adjusted for inflation, and so forth and so on. It's like the phugoid cycle on a dynamically unstable airplane.

I can't help but wonder what it would have looked like in a non-union environment. I suspect that the peaks probably wouldn't be there, but neither would the valleys.
 

who'swho

Don't hesitate. Penetrate!
Everyone says "without the unions, we'd never have....(insert favorite perk here). But, to be fair, we don't know what a non-unionized airline industry would look like, because we've never had one, at least not in the deregulated-era.

What I have observed over the last 30 years is that unions negotiate "industry leading contracts" in good times, and then it all gets taken away + more in bad times. When the good times roll again. the unions try to get it all back, adjusted for inflation, and so forth and so on. It's like the phugoid cycle on a dynamically unstable airplane.

I can't help but wonder what it would have looked like in a non-union environment. I suspect that the peaks probably wouldn't be there, but neither would the valleys.
The valleys are there in a non-union airline job. Everyone had to take paycuts when times got tough, union and non-union roles alike. You have to look beyond just the pay when it comes to a Union, especially as a dispatcher or pilot. I like the idea of having someone in the room to back me up if something were to go wrong on 1 of my flights. It's also comforting knowing that a lawyer would be available if the proverbial sh*t hit the fan and the FAA was threatening licensing action.
Also, for comparing union vs non-union major I think FedEx vs UPS is about as fair a comparison as they come. It's my understanding that FedEx simply gives their dispatchers whatever the UPS dispatchers get. Which begs the question... why doesn't FedEx match whatever is the industry leading contract? The answer is... they can do whatever they want to cuz they aren't unionized.
 

kilo

Well-Known Member
i'm the guy who gains absolutely nothing from paying rhetorical power into corporate talking points but still thinks its Logically Superior to lord over people with them anyways. when i get laid off and send the executive board personal thank you cards for taking care of the shareholders first i'm going to for-sure get some extra points for being the adult in the room

for real though, material resources are won and lost in wars of rhetorical attrition. you don't go to war smartly declaring how logically consistent you are about what you don't deserve. i know DESTROYING people with FACTS and LOGIC is the hottest dorky trend out there these days but doing it just to condescend to a group of professional counterparts who would like to win one of those wars is petty and boring
 

Atlanta

Well-Known Member
i'm the guy who gains absolutely nothing from paying rhetorical power into corporate talking points but still thinks its Logically Superior to lord over people with them anyways. when i get laid off and send the executive board personal thank you cards for taking care of the shareholders first i'm going to for-sure get some extra points for being the adult in the room

for real though, material resources are won and lost in wars of rhetorical attrition. you don't go to war smartly declaring how logically consistent you are about what you don't deserve. i know DESTROYING people with FACTS and LOGIC is the hottest dorky trend out there these days but doing it just to condescend to a group of professional counterparts who would like to win one of those wars is petty and boring
Nice... Of course it would actually mean more if you werent condescending!
 
Oh little crj. To live in your lonely planet where you are consistently right and apparently everyone else is wrong. Of course that's without any details or anything worth a squirt to contribute. I shat jetfuel in your general direction.

To see what most non-union airlines get, there are some examples having worked for a few. Seniority is at the whim of mgmt.; any position they want to fill gets whoever they think they can bend over the most, tons more pressure to complete the flight using 'marginal' or undefined regulatory practices, pay and benefits change at the drop of a memo.

For instance, jetBlue. One great airline that took care of their people until...the money got tight. Then they reduced benefits via memo until the pilots (with several votes) decided to unionize. There's a reason folks.

Again, a company gets the union it deserves. Trustworthy, honest, cooperative mgmt wouldn't cause a union on the property. Anybody know of one though? I don't. Thus...

Back on topic, we support each other in order to maintain the best pay and benefits we can. If we let every airline stand on their own, the abuses and lack of benefits would be abundant.

Is it all fair and right? No. Govt and lawyers have tipped the scales against labor even further handcuffing any stands we can take. (RLA)

Best of luck and support UPS. This goes for Spirit and any other airline labor group fighting for the best they can get while the getting is...at least not bad.
 

pljenkins

Resident Knucklehead
Not to mention that while the aircraft are smaller. regional dispatchers do the same amount of flights if not more as domestic desks at the majors for 40% or less of the pay starting with the top out at the regionals being less than starting at the majors. From what I have heard, regional salaries used to be competitive with the majors and somewhere along the line it was decided that the majors needed a substantial pay raise while the regionals were fine getting 30 or 40 cents. With the stagnation of regional pay and the increasing economy it has gotten to the point that companies like Costco have raised their starting pay to the same level as dispatch. I'm not saying they don't deserve that pay. What I am saying is that the love of aviation mixed with the carrot being dangled in front of us of MAYBE one day being hired by a major has allowed a stressful, specialized profession with a $4-$5000 entry fee essentially regress to the point that it is almost more lucrative to work at a retail store.

And don't even let the "free flights" fool you. With the modern populous wanting cheaper flights and the airlines right-sizing their aircraft to the routes, you look 2 days ahead of time and the flights are all oversold. Lucky for us that we have the privilege to ride up front where the jumpseat is almost smaller than an economy seat, especially on regional aircraft. But, what if you wanted to go somewhere with family? You pretty much have to buy tickets to have a chance of everyone making it.

It's gotten to the point that I have to do some soul searching with what I want to do if I can't make it to a major in the next year or 2. With a 4 year degree comes the inevitable student loans these days. When 1/3 of you paycheck goes to those and you are forced to have a roommate to even get your rent down to another 1/3 of your paycheck it gets frustrating. Throw in gas, insurance, 401k, etc and you barely get left with 2 nickles to rub together to go somewhere with those "free flights" that they are essentially worthless to you.

So yes, I believe that UPS should at least get near the level of the major passenger airlines, but I also believe that the dispatch groups in the rest of the industry need to catch up a bit also. Maybe not as much, but at least show that the companies value their dispatch groups.

[/rant]
A worthy discussion to have with your union. As to why this AAA/Major league pay thing is in place now, there are several reasons, and I am neither arguing the merit of nor justifying any of them. These are simply observations.

- Major airlines don't hire freshly minted dispatchers off the street. Any time I've ever seen a totally green dispatcher walk into the office of a major as a dispatcher it's been from another internal position in the airline. WN does this all the time. If you want to come in externally, you need experience. You gain experience through the regional system. Consider it like an apprenticeship.

- Regional airlines (usually) aren't in major metropolitan areas. Though this has really kind of consolidated a bit, so that's not always the case, but airlines like Air Wisconsin are a good example. Skywest is another. Appleton and St. George aren't exactly bustling metropolises with expensive rent. I know for a fact there are quite a few of my former co-workers at Dairy Air that are making a pretty good living out there on AWAC pay. Don't get married to a number. Wage is relative to the power of the dollar where you live. If you make $60K in Appleton Wisconsin you're carving out a pretty good life. If you make $60K in New York, you're homeless.

- This job ain't for everyone. It takes a lot of hard work, patience, and determination to move up in this industry. This isn't a job where one simply shows up, pushes the tin around, and goes home until one day the phone rings and you're called up. Anyone can memorize regs and policy and be a click monkey. Heck, if that's all it took we all would be out of a job in the next 10 years, replaced by the WOPR. The dispatcher that gets recognized is the one going out of his way to make things happen. Major airlines' dispatch departments can make or break the airline with its decisions. They want people in there that can think on their feet, be creative, and be personable while doing it.

I know how much it sucks being where you are. When I started at Air Midwest in 2001 I made a measly $28K a year, if that. Don't think for a second those of us working at the majors don't know what you're talking about. Nearly all of us paid our dues and worked our way up. Some with greater speed and efficiency than others. When you look at a pro baseball player consider how many years he spent playing ball before he ever stepped into the stadium. Little league, high school, bush-league, A, AA, AAA.... It's a long road to the top if you want to rock and roll.
 
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