United rwy incursion at PVD

Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
Just watch this video, it's only 8 mints. from the NTSB webpage. PERFECT example of some incompetent ground controller, aparently, suffering from PMS...

I understand that the United 757 got lost, but her attitude towards the whole thing was, B*TCHY !!!

The US Air crew extended an excellent professional courtesy by REFUSING the controller's clearance to takeoff by saying that 'we're not going on any runway until we figure out what's going on.'
And the controller gets even more b*tchy after the USAir refuses...

http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2000/incursion/pvd_incursion.rm
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
There was a really nice shockwave visualization for that somewhere. Don't know if anybody has it.

Ethan
 

JDMcFly

New Member
Yeah I remember that thread awhile ago. Without watching it, I remember A) Great job by USAir Captain B) Not so great job by fussy controller.
 

RiddlePilot

New Member
Interesting stuff. That .exe file is a great overview of the whole situation. Coincidentally, we had a female controller here at PRC say just about those exact words. She was working tower, got swamped, and yelled "EVERYBODY STOP!" over the frequency. Not very funny at all.

By the way, I noticed that there's no longer such thing as Runway 5L/23R. It's now Taxiway V. I wonder if this was the reason?
 

Tennant

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
PERFECT example of some incompetent ground controller, aparently, suffering from PMS...

[/ QUOTE ]
I say that's an understatement!!
 

bluelake

Well-Known Member
i got that shockwave thing a few months ago. WOW. I watched and listend in disbelief, and then repeated it a second time.

The first time I 'watched/listened' to it, I was all about "what a bitch that controller was..."

and then... I realized the REAL message:

Cerokee_Cruiser.. not to mince words with you at all, but the real lesson here is not at all the "professional courtesy" by the USAIR crew. the real lesson here is the PPPPPPPPPPPPPIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC exhibited by that crew that saved lives. My impression is that they did not decline their takeoff clearance in the pursuit of courtesy, they did it acting out of total responsiblity for their flight. TOTAL responsibilty beyond tht of a busy controller with a bird-shrill angry and anxious voice.

Once again, I aint mincing words... however, I truly believe that the real lesson for us pilots in this Shockwave "re-construction" needs to be clear, in my opinion. Not nasty controller. Not how easy it is to be lost. Not how to be a nice-guy pilot. But how to recognize a PIC moment that saves hundreds of lives. (No mumbers given: see Tenerife if ya want numbers)

Bluelake
 

Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Cerokee_Cruiser.. not to mince words with you at all, but the real lesson here is not at all the "professional courtesy" by the USAIR crew. the real lesson here is the PPPPPPPPPPPPPIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC exhibited by that crew that saved lives. My impression is that they did not decline their takeoff clearance in the pursuit of courtesy, they did it acting out of total responsiblity for their flight. TOTAL responsibilty beyond tht of a busy controller with a bird-shrill angry and anxious voice.


[/ QUOTE ]


Ok, i had the wrong word choice... sue me
 

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
Gotta agree there. Kudos to the US Air crew. The controller kept saying that the "United doesn't know where the hell they are." I diagree, they knew EXACTLY where they were. They told her three times. SHE didn't know where they were. As the ground controller, I think she should know the airport and the layout better than they do.
 

chperplt

New Member
My last company had a runway incursion at PVD about a year and a half ago. Similar situation in that there was reduced vis with snow and fog, and the ground controller was pretty much incompetent.

In this situation, the aircraft was given taxi instructions from the gate to runway 5R via T, C, and 5L. The problem was 5L was covered with snow and not lit up.. at night this became problematic. The aircraft missed 5L and turned onto 5R. A US Air flight was given take off clearance and upon lighting up the christmas tree, they realized they were on the wrong runway and called ground.

The FAA investigated and found 99% of the blame to fall on the PVD controllers. If any of you have been a PVD regular, you know that they give very ambiguous instructions and are not very friendly at all. Since this incident, PVD has new controllers, new airport markings, and runway 5L is now a taxi way.
 

E_Dawg

Moderator
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, it all comes down to a bad attitude by the controller.

[/ QUOTE ]

She could have handled it MUCH better but I think the lesson is more about watching your own a$$. Controllers are human and they screw up, but when they screw up pilots die... unless we play PIC.
 

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
Woah, that flash video is much better at showing what was going on. Think I might keep that around for future students. I retract my previous statement. The United crew really didn't know where they were. I didn't know the weather conditions were that bad when I saw the first presentation.
 

Stone Cold

Well-Known Member
The bad part is there are still very bad taxi instructions being given at PVD. If you aren't used to the airport, it is very easy to get lost, for as small as it is. Look at an updated taxi diagram and you can see they added to taxiways B, M, V, and 23R, 5L is now V. K is now C, but it is still easy to get disoriented.

On a side note, there are some good controllers here, but there are still people just like that lady (I don't recognize her voice, so I don't think she's here anymore) who will jump you in a heart-beat for screwing up.

Here is a "normal" taxi clearance for PVD..." Taxi to runway 34, expect intersection departure at taxiway B from runway 34, taxi via B full length, hold short of taxiway M, report reaching M." They also use RWY 34 like a taxiway (too much in my opinion). During snow operations, sometimes they close a taxiway (B was the last one closed), so you get "taxi to RWY 34 via A, M, RWY 23, hold short of 34 on 23," then clear you across 34 to C to continue taxiing. First time I had ever held short on a runway for taxiing.

Now, try having a student pilot do their first solo out of there...insane at times.
 
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