Timing adjustments to the outbound leg of a hold.

A150K

Well-Known Member
What are some of the procedures you guys are teaching to students to determine how much to shorten/lengthen the outbound so that the inbound is 1 minute? I just recently started teaching nothing but instrument students after a few years of nothing but primary and I realize this is something I'm kinda fuzzy on. My personal procedure has been to just make logical guesses and adjustments to the timing as necessary and while it works for me, I don't feel it really gives a student much of an established procedure to work with-plus I'm sure there's a much cleaner method out there.

Also, I'm working entirely with international students some of whom struggle with English, so I feel like things need to be extra clear for them if you know what I'm saying.
 

Roger Roger

Paid to sleep, fly for fun
Make the EFIS draw the hold and follow the magenta line. But really, I always would start with a minute outbound, see how much that gave me for the inbound, then adjust. If the inbound was 1:15, I'd cut the outbound to :45. Gets you close enough that no controller anywhere is going to care.
 

A150K

Well-Known Member
Make the EFIS draw the hold and follow the magenta line. But really, I always would start with a minute outbound, see how much that gave me for the inbound, then adjust. If the inbound was 1:15, I'd cut the outbound to :45. Gets you close enough that no controller anywhere is going to care.
That's pretty much what I do, but it seems like the check instructors at the new shop (141 school that is very procedure oriented) want something a little more specific. I'll have to ask around a bit at work tomorrow and see what the other Instrument Instructors are teaching.
 

hook_dupin

Well-Known Member
Thanks! Sound's simple enough that even I could manage to not screw it up :D
What are the chances you'll have your E6B on you when you have to do this for real?

Just a 1:1 switch is close enough and leaves your brain free to worry about real problems like "How long can I hold here and still complete the flight as planned?" or "I just went missed... should I try again or go ugly early and press to the alternate?"
 

A150K

Well-Known Member
What are the chances you'll have your E6B on you when you have to do this for real?

Just a 1:1 switch is close enough and leaves your brain free to worry about real problems like "How long can I hold here and still complete the flight as planned?" or "I just went missed... should I try again or go ugly early and press to the alternate?"
Slim to none-especially since I don't even own an e6b. I have my own methods that I used in my personal flying at previous flying jobs I've had. I'm simply looking for a more precise method to pass on to students. Both you and I know that ATC could care less how we come up with our timing (or if our timing is perfect for that matter) just as long as we stay on the protected side and abide by our clearance,but most 141 check instructors do care when it comes to getting people through stage checks.
 

nosehair

Well-Known Member
most 141 check instructors do care when it comes to getting people through stage checks.
...and those 141 check instructors should be looking for precisely what their 141 instrument program is teaching. You should have it in black and white in your school program, and that is the method that the check instructors are using.
The instrument procedures handbook for part 61 doesn't specify a specific method, so the school would determine that specificity, if the check instructor is looking for a specific technique.
 

Markf64

Well-Known Member
This is a murky part of my memory. I haven't done much instrument in a long time, but I think I recall, you always make your outbound 1-minute, regardless of inbound time. The bigger issue is correcting for crosswind.

I agree with @nosehair, the 141 school should have a procedure they want you to teach.
 

Parafiddle

Well-Known Member
When I was getting my Instrument rating, I was taught to do 1 minute initial outbound leg, see what the initial inbound leg worked out to be and then adjust the next outbound leg based on how far off the inbound leg was from 1 minute. For example, if you initial inbound leg was 50 seconds, your next outbound leg would be 1:10, which should make the second inbound leg really close to 1:00. Then just monitor each inbound leg in case the winds aloft change and you adjust the outbound leg accordingly.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
The AIM is pretty clear that
==============================
The initial outbound leg should be flown for 1 minute or 1 1/2 minutes (appropriate to altitude). Timing for subsequent outbound legs should be adjusted, as necessary, to achieve proper inbound leg time. Pilots may use any navigational means available; i.e., DME, RNAV, etc., to ensure the appropriate inbound leg times.
==============================

I could be wrong but think the AIM timed entry, like type of entry, is a uniform recommended technique for entry for remaining in protected airspace, not a regulatory requirement. It's a good baseline to work from (see @Parafiddle's post above) based on the the considerations for the creation of timed holds and protected airspace in FAA Order 7130.3A - Holding Pattern Criteria. Absent an ATC instruction to do it in a specific way, the only real requirement is to remain in protected airspace.
 

flyboy6585

Well-Known Member
Technique only, turn inbound then immediately speed up/slow down to make the GPS say 1:00...

Kidding - Although it would meet the letter of the reg absent a speed restriction from ATC and provided you weren't changing your TAS by more than 5%/10kts without advising.

In reality add/subtract the number of seconds you were short/long (respectively) and multiply by 1.5 and it will generally get you close, however, it is more complex than that due to the differing headwind/x-wind components on the inbound and outbound legs due to crab and the different effects of the wind on your turn. Also a factor is whether you can ID the abeam point or weather you have to start timing based solely on rolling out wings level. Bottom line, every DPE (outside of 141/142 schools who have their own specific formulas that students are expected to utilize) has been more concerned with the student understanding the concept of wind corrections and applying a reasonably sound correction IN THE PROPER DIRECTION, rather than worrying if the student hit 1:00 exactly on his inbound.

I have tried to hold with students when the winds at altitude were around 45 knots and it was rather amusing because it was pretty much a continuous 270* turn and then trying to recapture the inbound radial prior to station passage.
 

flyboy6585

Well-Known Member
Just for giggles I tried it on my sim just now, 100kias with a 45knot headwind on the inbound. Station passage, started my standard rate turn and continued all the way around (360*) and rolled out on the inbound radial. Took 1:40 seconds to pass the VOR again, so sometimes you just can't win.
 
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