This makes sense ...

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
I was looking at St. Louis University's Web site the other day and decided to look up open job positions.

Parks Aviation College was given to SLU in the mid-forties - for those who don't know Parks holds air operations certificate No. 1 and is a fairly well known "old school" aviation school. In other words SLU has abosorbed Parks into the main campus and the aviation degrees are all just part of SLU. They fly out of (Parks) Downtown St. Louis Airport ... literally right across from the Arch on the Illinios side of the river.

Anyway, tuition for most of the undergrad programs at SLU (a private, Catholic university .. anyone can attend it's just not a public/state school) runs about $30k a year. It's the oldest university West of the Mississippi and is very prestigous.

So, I look up aviation jobs and they have three openings. Two flight instructor positions (part time) and one dispatcher position (part time).

For the flight instructor positions they want a Bachelor's degree (or currently working on one in their program) and the pay range is $9.20-$9.40/hr.

The dispatcher position they want a H.S. diploma and the pay range is $9.20 - $9.50.

WTF!? Seriously. WTF!? The students you would be instructing are paying a base minimum of $120,000 in tuition (over four years) and then on top of that paying for the flight time. And all this very prestigous school can afford to pay their instructors is $9.00/hr and they want a BS/BA? Yet they can turn around and pay someone with a H.S. diploma the exact same wage?

Before I get the speech about "those positions are for their students" well, they're not. The "professional pilot" program dumps you out of school with a diploma, about 280 hours and nothing more than a commercial ticket.
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
Because they're going to have a phat stack of resumes tomorrow morning because people are willing to fly for free, or pay for their jobs so $9.20/hr is acceptable.

Sick sick sick.
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
I know ... but still don't make it right.


Hell SIUC was hiring instructors about 6 months back (or at least were advertising for 'em) and they wanted a MASTER's degree, all your CFI tickets and they were paying $22k a year. Full benes and everything but still ... $22k for a masters?
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
I know ... but still don't make it right.


Hell SIUC was hiring instructors about 6 months back (or at least were advertising for 'em) and they wanted a MASTER's degree, all your CFI tickets and they were paying $22k a year. Full benes and everything but still ... $22k for a masters?


[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, I can make it with just a high school diploma!

College is for those people that don't have dreams!
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
Hey now ... Bill Gates made it without a college degree!


I'm not a huge fan of college/university (it's not much more than a certificate of completeion IMHO at least at the Bachelor's level) - in other words it's not a direct indicator of intelligence - but that's the game. If you want to succeed (or greatly increase your chances of succeeding) you have to play the game and that means getting a degree.

But back to the topic ... I think the problem with low CFI pay is four fold.

1) There are a ton of CFIs.

2) There are a ton of CFIs because, in reality, there just isn't any other kind of job you can do with any regularity of "schedule" or pay (jump pilot pays worse is random flying at best, for example) or minimum requirements (i.e. 250-300 hours).

3) Because of one and two FBOs/Schools need not pay much because if one guy quits there are 14 waiting in line to take his place.

4) The customer wants everything on the cheap. This simply compounds 1, 2 and 3.

And what we're left with is a vast majority of the pilot training in this country is being performed by, essentially, the lowest bidder. Folks who have no intentions of staying in the teaching profession. The sad thing is many people who may like instructing are forced to leave the field and go to the "next job up" because everyone else brings the pay down.

The system, as it is now, is designed to essentially self destruct.

I'm not knocking CFIs (I'm working on mine now) because it's really the only choice a career oriented pilot has in terms of first jobs. I know full well that the majority of folks who get their CFIs take treat the job with the utmost in professionalism but because ofthe way the system works we still ahve poor pay and poor working conditions and that affects people regardless of how hard they try to not let it affect them. It's the system ... man ... the system!
 

TheWife

New Member
Not that this is really relavant....but I always wonder in any job why they have such odd amounts. I have seen jobs that start at 10.43 and get raised to 11.17 after 2 months, etc. Why are they so specfic down to the penny? Every job I have ever had usually raises were in 50 cent increments, and an even number. I don't know why, (Maybe cause I am werid) but it seems better to be paid 10.50 then 10.43 even though it doesn't work at to a huge difference. If they are being that picky about a few pennies......well, anyway, I have just awlays wondered that. Why not just give the instructors 10? Why 9.40?
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
Or $20-30 more along what they should make.


Especially at an institution like SLU.
 

JollyRodger

New Member
Universities like a lot of airlines are not money-making endeavors these days. Even at 120k for a BA the university will barely be making a profit off that student. Not to mention that many university flight programs are break-even operations (if they're lucky). They could pay their intstructors more, but the money would have to come from the students. How fair is that? Plus what Doug said is right, they will have plenty of applicants so what's your beef? Oh we should pay certain people more [read normative] because it's the right thing to do. I wish you were my boss:)
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
Eh, you're right.

We should all just work for free because that's where supply and demand and free market economy will eventually push the working wage.

No sense in fighting or working to make a better living ... the CEOs are our god now and we shall fall in line and accept what they deem is appropriate for our skills/training/labor/obedience.
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
No sense in fighting or working to make a better living ... the CEOs are our god now and we shall fall in line and accept what they deem is appropriate for our skills/training/labor/obedience.


[/ QUOTE ]

Dagnabbit!

Now you're stealing my words from my playbook!
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
Sorry!

I'll stop excercising free and rational thought this very second, Sir!
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry!

I'll stop excercising free and rational thought this very second, Sir!


[/ QUOTE ]

Do ya just hear a speech about Macchiaveli brewing?


One of 'dem thangs I done learnt from dat fancy book learnin' in kollege!
 

ready2fly

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
One of 'dem thangs I done learnt from dat fancy book learnin' in kollege!


[/ QUOTE ]
Tell us! Tell us Unky Doug!! Tell us `bout dem days in dat dere kolledge! Purdy Pulease!!


 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
But Macchiaveli and Sun Tzu are what American Business management techniques are based off of! How dare we invoke the name of the holy ones in vain against our beloved CEOs!




{trots off to heat self in head with a board while chanting whilst wearing a monk's robe for pennance for speaking ill-will about our savior CEO}
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
But Macchiaveli and Sun Tzu are what American Business management techniques are based off of! How dare we invoke the name of the holy ones in vain against our beloved CEOs!

[/ QUOTE ]

Sad but true. I haven't studied Tzu, but it sounds like something I should look into!

Reccomend a good book?
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
eh ... there are so many translations.

Probalby the most applicable in this situation would be anything along the lines of like "SunTzu (or Tsu) 'The Art of War' and Business." There are a lot of books where some white-MBA-dude has taken the book and pulled parts "applicable" to business.

If you want to just read the Art of War almost any translation will do. Best way is to probably read two different translations.

What people don't get - or miss- about Tzu is he is very rational about war and isn't all "guns and glory." He's one calculationg SOB.

(edit)

Business related:
Art of War for managers

Straight translations:
New Translation
Another translation
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
Actually, I'm going down to the Barnes and Noble here in Scottsdale to check out a few books, I'll have to look at that!
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
Actually, I'm more of a B&N at Shea/101 fan. Smaller shopping center, ample parking, etc. And fewer Soccermoms drop off their screaming kids there too!


I prefer Borders but ever since their parent company Kmart hit rough times, the cancelled alot of their expansion plans.
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I'm more of a B&N at Shea/101 fan. Smaller shopping center, ample parking, etc. And fewer Soccermoms drop off their screaming kids there too!

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh but these are simply targets to practice "The Art Of War" on after you abosorb Tzu's wisdom!
 
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