The Flying Turkey a CFI?

TheFlyingTurkey

Fetus Worshiper
Today was the first day of CFI ground school. We go 3 hours a day, from 16:00 to 19:00. 5 days a week, for 4 weeks. Today we just reviewed the course, the books we need, and what to expexct for the next few weeks. We start off with the FOI's and go into the FAR's later this week. It looks intense, but not as bad as I thought. There isn't much "new" information to learn, just more "in depth". I dont have a flight instructor yet, so I am not flying, but I think that will be resolved in a day or two.

The Turk.
 

TheFlyingTurkey

Fetus Worshiper
Well, I was assigned an instructor and today I had my first flight from the right seat. (I flew around in the Seminole from the right seat during route, but only worked the radios.) I did way better than I thought I would. Take off was a breeze, then we did some turns to headings, slow flight, steep turns, and I put the foggles on for a little while. Then my first right seat landing... and it was right on centerline. It was a pretty fun flight. My flight instructor already gave me some homework for tomorrow, along with the studying I have to do for ground school. Time to get busy...

The Turk.
 

TheFlyingTurkey

Fetus Worshiper
Well, I haven't flown since Friday morning. On Friday I had my first experience with cross controlled stall's. Now I know why they say "don't do that". Holy crap! My instructor did it first: left bank, left rudder, then abruptly turning the yoke to the right, and all the way back. Next thing I knew we were inverted and pointed down towards the ground. We pulled some G's coming out of it, and we easily lost 1000 feet. Then it was my turn. I did the same steps in the maneuver as my instructor, but I didn't do it as abruptly. You dont go inverted unless you really yank on the control's, insted we just flew around, nose high, one wing low, in a constant buffet. I'll have to work on getting the courage to yank back on the control's.

I had Saturday off, but I have been fighting a cold for about 4 days, when it finally got the best of me on Sunday. So I cancelled my flight. That was the first flight I ever cancelled. I felt well enough to take my FOI written today, then had ground school. We went over endorsements... for 3 hours. No flight tomorrow (I could use the rest) and for ground school I have to prepare my first lesson plan. The subject is: "engine roughness at altitude". I will cover all the basics, icing, density altitude, and mechanical problems. Should be interesting to see how it turns out...

The Turk.
 

TDK90

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
Next thing I knew we were inverted and pointed down towards the ground. We pulled some G's coming out of it, and we easily lost 1000 feet

[/ QUOTE ]

Not very impressive Pan Am, I wouldn't show a Private student that he'd probably never come back. I'd also have the airplane checked over, you exceeded several limitations. The Pipers you fly aren't certified for inverted flight or aerobatic maneuvers.

The whole pont of demonstrating a cross controlled stall is to give a realistic scenario where it might happen, no one is going to do what your CFI showed you.
 

TDK90

New Member
Full marks for stating the obvious..what's your point?

A x-controlled stall is a demonstration maneuver that a CFI would show to a private student, I believe it's on the private pilot syllabus at most schools including Pan Am. My CFI showed me one but thankfully he didn't invert the airplane.
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
I can't remember if it was part of my syllabus when I was training at ERAU, but I'd show my private students a cross control stall late in their training.

Not beacuse it was required, but I think thats one of the most likely scenarios. I'd rather my students see it with the presence of a CFI rather than inadvertently on base to final.

I always thought the basic stall demonstration was highly unrealistic without a climb, turn or other manuever to simulate a phase of flight.

But, alas, that's just my own personal opinion.
 

Tired

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Next thing I knew we were inverted and pointed down towards the ground. We pulled some G's coming out of it, and we easily lost 1000 feet

[/ QUOTE ]

Not very impressive Pan Am, I wouldn't show a Private student that he'd probably never come back. I'd also have the airplane checked over, you exceeded several limitations. The Pipers you fly aren't certified for inverted flight or aerobatic maneuvers.

The whole pont of demonstrating a cross controlled stall is to give a realistic scenario where it might happen, no one is going to do what your CFI showed you.



[/ QUOTE ]

What is unrealistic about that senerio? I guess you’ve never had a student panic in a stall and try to whip the yoke around to control a dropping wing? I’m sure Turkey is glad he is being shown the type of realistic situations students can get him into before he goes out into the real world and gets scared by a new student pilot.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Next thing I knew we were inverted and pointed down towards the ground. We pulled some G's coming out of it, and we easily lost 1000 feet

[/ QUOTE ]

Not very impressive Pan Am, I wouldn't show a Private student that he'd probably never come back. I'd also have the airplane checked over, you exceeded several limitations. The Pipers you fly aren't certified for inverted flight or aerobatic maneuvers.

The whole pont of demonstrating a cross controlled stall is to give a realistic scenario where it might happen, no one is going to do what your CFI showed you.



[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds fun. Just not in a Cessna/Piper. They're not designed for that many Gs, if any.

Instead of yanking and banking the controls around to show the cross control stall; a good IP would demonstrate the maneuver by putting the plane in a realistic scenario where it could happen. For example, set a hard deck (say 8000 MSL) that represents field elevation. Next fly at "pattern" altitude of 9000 or 9500 and pick a ground reference to work off of. Place the aircraft 180 degrees or 90 degrees from the ground reference (if you can determine the general wind direction, you can incorporate that too to be on "final" with a crosswind). Now simulate a base to final turn from pattern altitude, where on final you have a crosswind (simulated or actual) that you need to cross-control to maintain centerline. At some point, work the aircraft into a cross control stall and effect recovery, noting the altitude above the harddeck you started, the altitude loss, and the altitude above the harddeck recovery was made.

The point is, any maneuver taught to the student that has some mark of "real world" application can be easier understood, and hence, better appreciated.

MD
 

TDK90

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
What is unrealistic about that senerio? I guess you’ve never had a student panic in a stall and try to whip the yoke around to control a dropping wing? I’m sure Turkey is glad he is being shown the type of realistic situations students can get him into before he goes out into the real world and gets scared by a new student pilot

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow and you're a CFI?

What you're describing bears no resemblance to a cross controlled stall, in fact thats how you accelerate a spin. If the aim was to show Turk how to recover from a stall recovery gone wrong ok, but it wasn't. Read the the AFH on cross controlled stalls.

The fact remains that to take an Archer or Arrow inverted and into an aerobatic pitch attitude demonstrating a cross controlled stall is both illegal and dangerous.
 

Tired

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is unrealistic about that senerio? I guess you’ve never had a student panic in a stall and try to whip the yoke around to control a dropping wing? I’m sure Turkey is glad he is being shown the type of realistic situations students can get him into before he goes out into the real world and gets scared by a new student pilot

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow and you're a CFI?

What you're describing bears no resemblance to a cross controlled stall, in fact thats how you accelerate a spin. If the aim was to show Turk how to recover from a stall recovery gone wrong ok, but it wasn't. Read the the AFH on cross controlled stalls.

The fact remains that to take an Archer or Arrow inverted and into an aerobatic pitch attitude demonstrating a cross controlled stall is both illegal and dangerous.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know what the aim was? Were you there? Legalities aside, explain to me why taking an Archer to an aerobatic pitch attitude is dangerous. I've read the AFH, and it says right in there that the aircraft may go inverted when demonstrating a cross-controlled stall. Does that mean we shouldn't do it anymore?
 

TDK90

New Member
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explain to me why taking an Archer to an aerobatic pitch attitude is dangerous

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No, I won't, I've heard some sh** on this forum but that's priceless. Lets just confirm what you said, you think it's safe to do aerobatic maneuvers in an Archer and you are a Pan Am employed CFI at DVT, correct?

Ever heard of the Darwin Award?
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
I agree. Thats a really stupid move. Thats intentional aerobatics, and the Archer is not approved for that. Not only that, but I'm sure you weren't wearing chutes, which are required for intentional aerobatics.

If you simulate the base-to-final overshoot into a x-controlled stall, its really a pretty docile maneuver. You'd really have to bank and yank hard to get over on your back in a Cherokee.
 

panampilot

New Member
I'd like for Turkey to verify that you were in fact inverted. Inverted meaning the belly of the plane was up and the top of the aircraft facing down.

I remember when I first learned cross controlled stalls and spins that it sure felt like we were inverted but I saw as we did a couple that it really wasn't so. You may feel like it but I highly doubt you were in fact inverted. If that was the case then I too agree that was very dangerous.

Second of all, Tired has more experience teaching students than any of you combined, so back off.
 

E7B

New Member
>>>If you simulate the base-to-final overshoot into a x-controlled stall, its really a pretty docile maneuver.<<<

I’m sure there are more than a few NTSB investigators that would disagree with that statement.

And because we’re all stating the obvious here: X-controlled stalls are not considered aerobatic flight (nor are spins). And if they’re demonstrated correctly (simulating base to final at a safe altitude), the stall is entered with little to no warning and extreme nose low attitude and loss of altitude. The demonstration should correlate to a new student who is reluctant to over bank in the pattern why they definitely don’t want to overcompensate with opposite rudder. Now that is priceless. No wonder the FAA requires CFI’s to be able to demonstrate these.

By the way, the Archer is Normal Category rated to 5.7 G’s, and if below 2138 lbs Utility rated to 6.6. A well demonstrated x-control stall will not come close to these limitations.
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
I'm sure there are too.

And I never once said that a X-controlled stall or a spin was an aerobatic maneuver.
 

chunk75

Well-Known Member
uhhh....normal category = 5.7? 3.8 the last time I checked.
4.4 for utility (really dusty cobwebs here)
 

TDK90

New Member
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Tired has more experience teaching students than any of you combined, so back off.

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He must be the exception at Pan Am then because most of you guys get hired by the Regionals at 800 hrs don't you?

As for E7B, man you're just a joke! Are you actually a pilot? Try pulling 6.6Gs in your PA28 and see what happens, another nominee for the Darwin Award.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
[quoteTry pulling 6.6Gs in your PA28 and see what happens, another nominee for the Darwin Award.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone on this board actually done 6.5 Gs? It's uncomfortable enough for the body, let alone the airframe. I'm not that familiar with the Archer, but I personally can't imagine the plane being able to pull those Gs.

But I could be wrong on that account too.

MD
 
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