The Cargo Carve Out

Should freight operations comply with 117?

  • Yes

    Votes: 28 96.6%
  • No

    Votes: 1 3.4%

  • Total voters
    29

Autothrust Blue

"I’d make a suggestion but you won’t listen”
Morning (evening)...

Since I don’t fly freight, I wanted to get freight pilot opinions on whether or not 121 freight operations should be required to comply with Part 117.

There is presently a bill before the House (https://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/news-room/2019-11-19-enhanced-fatigue-rules-for-all-cargo-ops) that would mandate such compliance, and while on a pure science and task equivalence basis I support such a thing, I figured I’d ask some people who live the freight dog life for their opinions.

Thanks!
 

Autothrust Blue

"I’d make a suggestion but you won’t listen”
Sent the form letters to my representatives this morning.
There's been some amount of screeching from some FDX pilots I know, saying that it will "kill their schedules." Since I have positively no idea what's in most of those lines (though I assume it looks a lot like jungle turns and the like at my employer), I don't know if I should buy it or not. Moreover, I am not particularly eager to have that experience myself.

I do know that the consecutive nighttime operations rules vaguely resemble the night-hub-turn thing (fly there, nap, fly back, "day rest"), and even allow for five in a row in that arrangement. I know, too, that the schedule the UPS 1354 pilots were on happened to comply with 117.
 

BlueMoon

Well-Known Member
There's been some amount of screeching from some FDX pilots I know, saying that it will "kill their schedules." Since I have positively no idea what's in most of those lines (though I assume it looks a lot like jungle turns and the like at my employer), I don't know if I should buy it or not. Moreover, I am not particularly eager to have that experience myself.

I do know that the consecutive nighttime operations rules vaguely resemble the night-hub-turn thing (fly there, nap, fly back, "day rest"), and even allow for five in a row in that arrangement. I know, too, that the schedule the UPS 1354 pilots were on happened to comply with 117.
The bulk of the night hub turns essentially resemble Continuous duty overnights, with anywhere from 90 minutes to 4 hours in between block in and out. Most turns are in the 2-3 hour break in my experience, giving you about a 2 hour sleep opportunity in the sleep rooms.

It’s been a few years since I looked at 117, but With a Continues Duty overnight I think there had to be 3 hour break and it couldn’t be reduced? So if you are delayed inbound they had to push the outbound flight in the morning. Sound right?

The company probably wouldn’t enjoy that, due to having to delay outbound flights in the morning. Also, then you would land a couple hours later with the sun blasting you in the face making it harder to fall asleep at the hotel. So I’m not sure I like that idea.

Honestly, I’d like to see them publish a bid pack or two with lines constructed completely to 117 regs so I could see what they look like.

So my response is, I don’t know.
 
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amorris311

Well-Known Member
There's been some amount of screeching from some FDX pilots I know, saying that it will "kill their schedules." Since I have positively no idea what's in most of those lines (though I assume it looks a lot like jungle turns and the like at my employer), I don't know if I should buy it or not. Moreover, I am not particularly eager to have that experience myself.

I do know that the consecutive nighttime operations rules vaguely resemble the night-hub-turn thing (fly there, nap, fly back, "day rest"), and even allow for five in a row in that arrangement. I know, too, that the schedule the UPS 1354 pilots were on happened to comply with 117.
While I understand some of the more established cargo carriers might have some issues with schedules, the meat of this initiative is to gain traction with the supplemental certs. It’s a long arduous process, which can be infuriating, but addressing the issue so all pilots in the USA can have some semblance of long term physical health is good.

Just my thoughts.
 

Autothrust Blue

"I’d make a suggestion but you won’t listen”
While I understand some of the more established cargo carriers might have some issues with schedules, the meat of this initiative is to gain traction with the supplemental certs. It’s a long arduous process, which can be infuriating, but addressing the issue so all pilots in the USA can have some semblance of long term physical health is good.

Just my thoughts.
You can get around the rules via FRMS too. Which I’d imagine a certain Memphis based airline is politically well heeled, connected, and rich enough to do.
 

z987k

Well-Known Member
Something that would go a long way for me is to ban rest periods in the 20-26 hour range. What happens there is you get in, sleep 8 or so, wake up have an entire wake cycle then report for an 18 hour duty right when you should be going to sleep again. You land having been awake, minus maybe a 2hr nap for 30 hours or so. Repeat indefinitely.
 

amorris311

Well-Known Member
You can get around the rules via FRMS too. Which I’d imagine a certain Memphis based airline is politically well heeled, connected, and rich enough to do.
Yea you’re right about that. Although I think the FDX pilot contract has enough protections in their scheduling section to make that somewhat of a moot point. It’s has been a couple of years since I last looked at their contract but if my memory serves me correct they have stricter rules then 117.
 

Autothrust Blue

"I’d make a suggestion but you won’t listen”
Yea you’re right about that. Although I think the FDX pilot contract has enough protections in their scheduling section to make that somewhat of a moot point. It’s has been a couple of years since I last looked at their contract but if my memory serves me correct they have stricter rules then 117.
Here’s a meme I prepared earlier.
439936B9-264D-4786-B4B0-991EEE5FC2E7.jpeg
 

QXDX

Well-Known Member
Night operators should come up with something that works for them, not CC what day operators do.
 

QXDX

Well-Known Member
But a lot of the "day" operators do the same schedules as some of the night operators. I do so much middle of the night flying at my ulcc.
Be that as it may, my point is that the proper solution derives from assessing the problem and devising something that addresses the need, not just copying what worked for something else. If 117 turns out to be the proper solution, then so be it. But don't implement something just for the sake of implementing something.
 
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Screaming_Emu

Great and Unmatched Wisdom
Be that as it may, my point is that the proper solution derives from assessing the problem and devising something that addresses the need, not just copying what worked for something else. If 117 turns out to be the proper solution, then so be it. But don't implement something just for the sake of looking like you're doing something.
117 used science to come up with rest rules that took into account circadian rhythm and time zone changes. Can’t imagine anything more applicable to regulations regarding rest than that.
 

Roger Roger

Paid to sleep, fly for fun
117 used science to come up with rest rules that took into account circadian rhythm and time zone changes. Can’t imagine anything more applicable to regulations regarding rest than that.
Don’t pay attention to qxdx. It’s pretty apparent that ever since he got his medical denied he hates pilots, especially union ones. Comes out in pretty much any thread he posts in.
 
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