Thank you Pan Am!

Mavmb

Well-Known Member
Since Pan Am came up with a new policy and won't let instructors rent their planes anymore, lots of Pan Am instructors have been coming over to Sawyer and the other small schools in Phoenix to rent aircraft. Thank you Pan Am!
 

panampilot

New Member
I'm going to respond to this in the most adult way I can. Pan Am is not a perfect school. I have said that many times. Everything has it's flaws. Pan Am just happens to have very few.

I do however get tired of people coming on this forum to take cheap shots at Pan Am. mav continues to make it a weekly habit of coming on here just to bash Pan Am. I guess I just don't understand what motivates him to do such things.

If I was mad at a business for their practices, I would let them know. I would also let other customers know of how I felt. Many people have done that, and I have never faulted them for doing so. I wouldn't however continue to spend the rest of my life harboring these ill feelings. I would move on and channell my energy into something else. I guess what I will ultimately have to do is just stop trying to rid this forum of these pests.

It is a never ending battle. As I said before, in the future I will be flying at FL 350 in some type of sweet jet and Mav will be stuck in his 172 trying to bash Pan Am. To all his own.
 

ananoman

New Member
I am curious why they would have this policy. Instructors may need to rent from time to time to keep proficient. I went a long period without flying single engine, and when I got a student for commercial single engine add on, I had to rent to practice the maneuvers. If I had not done this, I really would not have given my student his moneys worth.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
I made a fairly long visit to PanAms academy at DVT last week and got the grand tour of the facilities and aircraft from one of the career counselors. Seemed impressive to me, but then again I saw an outsider's view in, and got the corporate presentation, so I'll reserve judgement either way. The aircraft seemed nice, as did the sims, etc. But most importantly for me, I got to see where PAs aerial working areas were and the associated freqs, so I can do some positive deconfliction when transiting such areas.
 

panampilot

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
I am curious why they would have this policy.

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If I remember correctly they had a memo about it stating that insurance costs would be unreasonable if they didn't limit the type of activities the planes were flown for. Therefore, the aircraft are only for instruction purposes only. I believe that as instructors we can still get a plane gratis to stay current. I haven't had to do it in awhile so I'm not quite up to date.
 

Tired

New Member
Mav the Instigator

It's been a pretty quiet week here in the pan am forum, so it was only a matter of time before mav felt the need to stir things up. However, in typical mav fashion he has the facts incorrect. Instructors are welcome to rent any Pan Am aircraft at anytime. All employees get a discount, and employees with over one year of service get to rent the aircraft at cost. Moreover, if an instructor feels that he or she is not proficient, or needs to become night current they will almost always get an aircraft for free.

The real policy is that no persons other then current students and instructors are allowed in Pan Am aircraft. This represented a minuscule portion of the business, and no doubt the cost more then outweighed the benefits. The sad part is that mav sees this very small loss of Pan Am business as a huge deal.
 

Mavmb

Well-Known Member
Re: Mav the Instigator

I have my facts incorrect? Wow, you don't even lie well. You just contradicted everything Pan Am pilot said about Pan Am's latest policy.

This is easy for me guys. I just come in here and post the truth and watch you and Pan Am pilot get all upset.
 

Wolverine

New Member
Re: Mav the Instigator

Once again Mav, you didn't post the truth, Tired posted the truth. Instructors and students can rent PanAm planes at anytime, provided a plane is available. However, only PanAm students and staff can be passengers in the aircraft.

They started the policy to reduce insurance costs. I can only hope that it's a temporary policy. Instructors and students have been getting checked out to rent other aircraft so that they can fly around their family and friends.
 

Tired

New Member
Re: Mav the Instigator

[ QUOTE ]
I have my facts incorrect? Wow, you don't even lie well. You just contradicted everything Pan Am pilot said about Pan Am's latest policy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know it's futile, but once again I'll point out that you are wrong. I think I also deserve an apology. Before you call someone a liar you'd better be real sure you know what you’re talking about.

I think you might consider carefully how your actions are perceived by people reading this forum. You’ve chosen not to remain anonymous, and your words will be recorded for quite sometime. There is nothing wrong with voicing your opinion, however, the level you’ve taken your opinion is inappropriate. I think as time goes by you’ll regret the attitude you’ve shown in this early stage of your career.
 

TheFlyingTurkey

Fetus Worshiper
Re: Mav the Instigator

Over here in Fort Pierce we had what they called "fun flights" where Pan Am students could rent the Archers.
Apparently someone from the insurance company found out about the fun flights, and said if they continued, the rates would go up. So the big wig's decided to stop the sun flights.
However, CFI candidates (like myself) can rent the Arrow for "role play" flights, as long as another CFI candidate goes along. Usually both candidates will split the cost of the flight.

The Turk.
 

PanAmFPRHappy1

New Member
Re: Mav the Instigator

quote]Once again Mav, you didn't post the truth, Tired posted the truth. Instructors and students can rent PanAm planes at anytime, provided a plane is available. However, only PanAm students and staff can be passengers in the aircraft.

They started the policy to reduce insurance costs. I can only hope that it's a temporary policy. Instructors and students have been getting checked out to rent other aircraft so that they can fly around their family and friends.



[/ QUOTE ]


They have temporarily suspended the "Fun Flights". These flights were for students and instuctors to fly family and friends. However, the insurance company noted Pan Am is not in the plane rental business and as such cannot allow non-students and non-staff members as passengers in the planes due to increased liability exposure.
 

DrBenny

New Member
Re: Mav the Instigator

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have my facts incorrect? Wow, you don't even lie well. You just contradicted everything Pan Am pilot said about Pan Am's latest policy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know it's futile, but once again I'll point out that you are wrong. I think I also deserve an apology. Before you call someone a liar you'd better be real sure you know what you’re talking about.

I think you might consider carefully how your actions are perceived by people reading this forum. You’ve chosen not to remain anonymous, and your words will be recorded for quite sometime. There is nothing wrong with voicing your opinion, however, the level you’ve taken your opinion is inappropriate. I think as time goes by you’ll regret the attitude you’ve shown in this early stage of your career.

[/ QUOTE ]

In other words, you won't be hired, Mav, because you're acting like a petulant child instead of a professional aviator.
 

250blue

New Member
Re: Mav the Instigator

I don't know what that has to do with insurance and premiums. At Westwind we can rent planes whenever we want and take any quests for any number of days and go wherever we feel. We also get a lot of Pan Am guys coming over to rent our airplanes (I think they have to get it approved with Pan Am first). Seems ridculous that when you have a pilot's license, a school won't let you rent planes. As far as insurance premiums, our planes are no more expensive per hour so that seems like a lame excuse. I feel sorry for my friends over at PA who complain about this "policy" when I take my visitors up to Sedona, Vegas, Laughlin, Denver, or wherever we want to go.
 

PanAmFPRHappy1

New Member
Re: Mav the Instigator

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what that has to do with insurance and premiums. At Westwind we can rent planes whenever we want

Seems ridculous that when you have a pilot's license, a school won't let you rent planes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pan Am is NOT in the plane rental business. The planes the academy has are for conducting training excercises. Period.

Perhaps the other schools need to make up additional revenue and therefore ignore the liability coverage clause in their policy. I do not know if that is the case or not. In any event, let an accident happen at ANY school involving a non-student or staff member and rental policies will change.

It would be like allowing someone under 25 to drive a car with an insurance policy that prohibits drivers under 25. I am sure the additional premium is costly and Pan Am "could" allow rentals if they wished to play the odds and risk it...but it simply does not make good business sense.
 

Tired

New Member
Re: Mav the Instigator

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what that has to do with insurance and premiums. At Westwind we can rent planes whenever we want and take any quests for any number of days and go wherever we feel.

[/ QUOTE ]

Allowing people other then students or employees in aircraft is a higher liability risk for the insurance company, thus triggering higher rates. Perhaps that is why it costs more to rent a Westwind C-172 then a Pan Am Archer.
 

Tired

New Member
Re: Mav the Instigator

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It does not cost more to rent a C-172, than an Archer at Pan Am.

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Incorrect.

Pan Am charges $97/hr for an Archer. Westwind charges $99 for a C-172R, or $101 for a C-172S. Also, don't forget Westwind is currently charging an extra $4 fuel surcharge. Now, you could be talking about maybe renting an old C-172 for $93 an hour with the fuel surcharge, but that wouldn't be a fair compairsion since our Archers are new, with GNS430s and AC. We sold all our old aircraft to places like Westwind, so I can't give you our rate on them anymore.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
Re: Mav the Instigator

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It does not cost more to rent a C-172, than an Archer at Pan Am.

[/ QUOTE ]

Incorrect.

Pan Am charges $97/hr for an Archer. Westwind charges $99 for a C-172R, or $101 for a C-172S. Also, don't forget Westwind is currently charging an extra $4 fuel surcharge. Now, you could be talking about maybe renting an old C-172 for $93 an hour with the fuel surcharge, but that wouldn't be a fair compairsion since our Archers are new, with GNS430s and AC. We sold all our old aircraft to places like Westwind, so I can't give you our rate on them anymore.


[/ QUOTE ]

Damn.....back when I was getting my PVT at Sawyer (at PHX Sky Harbor), a 172 went for $48/hr wet, with no fuel surcharge......

How times have changed.
 
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