Stuck in Rodchester

z987k

Well-Known Member
#41
I've never seen the position of duty manager as someone who is authorized to exercise operational control. This ultimately sounds like a loss there of. That or an informal hijacking.
 

A1TAPE

Well-Known Member
#42
I've never seen the position of duty manager as someone who is authorized to exercise operational control. This ultimately sounds like a loss there of. That or an informal hijacking.


However when I read the report I (and I think the rest of us) thought this of the whole situation
 

z987k

Well-Known Member
#43


However when I read the report I (and I think the rest of us) thought this of the whole situation
Someone not authorized to exercise operational control, more or less seizing it, or attempting to is a pretty big deal. Operational control is a big ticket item for the FAA. I'd be curious what the FAA did in response.
 

A1TAPE

Well-Known Member
#44
Someone not authorized to exercise operational control, more or less seizing it, or attempting to is a pretty big deal. Operational control is a big ticket item for the FAA. I'd be curious what the FAA did in response.
Technically duty managers are certificated dispatchers so they are allowed to take over operational control. They do it routinely when a dispatcher has to shift flights off to deal with an emergency with a flight or some other critical situation.
 

ppragman

Direct Yeska
#45
Someone not authorized to exercise operational control, more or less seizing it, or attempting to is a pretty big deal. Operational control is a big ticket item for the FAA. I'd be curious what the FAA did in response.
Almost anybody can be given some level of operational control at an operation. The FAA makes a big deal about OC then frequently ignores major violations of it when convenient.
 
#47
The Duty Manager replied that they were taking operational control of the flight at that time. I was on the phone with the Captain and handed the phone to the Duty Manager.
Im guessing the exchange was like
DIS: Pop the slides? But they are only supposed to be used for Evacs. Also I have Op Control of this flight so Im responsible for it if something goes wrong.
DM: Ill take full responsiblity for the outcome of this situation. Note that I now am assuming full Op Control of the flight pass over the phone please.
*DM tells CA to pop slide, CA and DM debate about it. DM then personally sends ACARS to CA telling them to "DECLARE AN EMERGENCY AND BLOW THE SLIDE. YOU HAVE 1 MINUTE. EMERGENCY!"
I highly doubt the DIS who relinquished Op Control of the flight sent that ACARS and more likely the duty manager sent it.

I don’t care. I’m not blowing the slide to stop the 3 hr clock. There is no emergency. Facing a financial fine does NOT constitute an emergency on my plane to blow a slide. My firm answer as a Captain would be NO.
 

A1TAPE

Well-Known Member
#50
I believe it was always IHOP. I highly doubt IHOP would spend the money needed to change their locations signage and other company materials from IHOP to IHOb.
 
#52
Part of my job is finding remote parking not only for the airlines I look after but anyone who is in a pinch. Due to ATC delays, an airline was in a position where they had 1 move team, 4 planes landing at once, all RON flights, and were given 2 spots across the airfield. It was clear that the 3rd plane could easily hold over 1 hour. I suggested that we just park the 2 RON planes that need to be towed abeam 2 nearby gates where they will be out of the way all morning. This is first approved, then denied on the grounds of there being no way to charge the airline the hourly parking rate in the system(seriously) and that it was "weird" and no one wanted to pull the trigger on letting me do it. In this case, I had the 2 tows hold on the gate a bit longer then quickly tow on-to live international gates that opened up and the worst hold was about 30 minutes. Sure, if we had a pax with a heart attack on an A380 drop in at 3AM, "Sorry, there's a hot dog on a stick colored 737 hanging out on our last A380 gate for the night, go shut down on a taxiway in Oakland", but is still totally cool, because we can bill them for using the gates.

Never underestimate the power of the aviation-level game of liability hot potato, and NEVER get in between a penny on the ground and an aviation entity. I've done a lot of stupid stuff over the years, and was very rarely called out for it. If I make a math error on the remote parking billing and short the airport $155(again, seriously), my phone rings on my day off. Over and over.

I can see why in this climate a crew would be sheepish. That said, both them and the Compass crew have a union, right? Isn't the principal purpose of the union to protect a pilot who has to make these kind of decisions because of situations they were put in by the company and a lack of clear guidelines and support? I'd be surprised to hear of either crew being terminated over not following the rules/directives here.
 
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ASpilot2be

Qbicle seat warmer
#53
I've never seen the position of duty manager as someone who is authorized to exercise operational control. This ultimately sounds like a loss there of. That or an informal hijacking.
I have seen it where the Duty Officer can exercise operational control.
 
#54
I don’t care. I’m not blowing the slide to stop the 3 hr clock. There is no emergency. Facing a financial fine does NOT constitute an emergency on my plane to blow a slide. My firm answer as a Captain would be NO.
Screw it, at that point if it’s become this much of a chocolate mess, I’d blow all the slides, grab a beer and exit.

In reality blowing a slide = eh whatever. If company wants it blown, then, that’s on them. Letting people use the slide in a non-emergency is a different story however.
 

jynxyjoe

The Kickin' Chicken!
#55
Im suprised the flight crew didnt just throw the mebasa crew to the wayside and get in the terminal on their own. Its NOT mebasas terminal its the airports. Also signature could have been a resource. Since the 145 is low enough they could have deplaned without airstairs by how they do it during evacs just at a slower pace then walk to the terminal and swipe inside somehow or use a jetbridge for access.
Mesaba told the xjt crew to hop out because the TSA was bailing, and mesaba people were leaving for the night, northwest and mesaba werent gonna approve the overtime for an airplane acting that stupid. Flight crew decided to stick on board and used "listened to the company" as an excuse to milk the clock at the flight hour rate.

Mesaba ground crew left the airport, they didnt hold anyone on, asked multiple times if they xjt would consider leaving and packing it in for the night. The captain didnt exercise any authority because the captain wanted to ride that door open time right to a new car.
 

jynxyjoe

The Kickin' Chicken!
#56
The airline told them to.
My response back would been a simple... "No, you have 1 minute to find me a gate or remote parking spot that allows me to open the door without blowing a slide."
Cool story. Open your contract to section 19. We'll make this as fair as possible for you. Try to have an answer ready for "theres no safety issue blowing the slide I can think of, why were you so dead set against blowing the slide? The Company sent me the recording of their conversation with you over the phone explaining how it's a bad deal but theyd rather spend 15k on the slide, than be fined 30k for every single passenger in the back."

Blow the slide, call the ALPA office, tell them you're looking for lawyer initials RP.
 

A1TAPE

Well-Known Member
#57
Mesaba told the xjt crew to hop out because the TSA was bailing, and mesaba people were leaving for the night, northwest and mesaba werent gonna approve the overtime for an airplane acting that stupid. Flight crew decided to stick on board and used "listened to the company" as an excuse to milk the clock at the flight hour rate.

Mesaba ground crew left the airport, they didnt hold anyone on, asked multiple times if they xjt would consider leaving and packing it in for the night. The captain didnt exercise any authority because the captain wanted to ride that door open time right to a new car.
Dont you mean the door closed time? They only get paid flight hours between block out and block in.
 
#58
Cool story. Open your contract to section 19. We'll make this as fair as possible for you. Try to have an answer ready for "theres no safety issue blowing the slide I can think of, why were you so dead set against blowing the slide? The Company sent me the recording of their conversation with you over the phone explaining how it's a bad deal but theyd rather spend 15k on the slide, than be fined 30k for every single passenger in the back."

Blow the slide, call the ALPA office, tell them you're looking for lawyer initials RP.
Blowing a slide was never the intent of stopping the 3 hr rule for the DOT clock. And I'll gladly explain myself at any hearing for the course of action I took.
 

jynxyjoe

The Kickin' Chicken!
#59
Blowing a slide was never the intent of stopping the 3 hr rule for the DOT clock. And I'll gladly explain myself at any hearing for the course of action I took.
Cool story.
Dont you mean the door closed time? They only get paid flight hours between block out and block in.
Well you're riding the cash register until the door opens there sweety. We're saying the same thing but you'd rather i said riding the door closed time hu? Tomato tomato.
 
#60
Technically duty managers are certificated dispatchers so they are allowed to take over operational control. They do it routinely when a dispatcher has to shift flights off to deal with an emergency with a flight or some other critical situation.
Not at my place of employment, unless we have different definitions of 'duty manager.' Sure, they hold a license, but they don't work the floor and cannot exercise operational control.
 
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