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Split Duty/Stand-up History

tcco94

Professional GTA V Pilot
#41
Because not all airlines do they go senior enough to be a choice to do them. I especially hated them on reserve because I didn't know about them in advance enough to adjust my sleep
I guess from my perspective, it sucks being junior and getting crappy stuff....but that's all part of the industry. It would be really odd listening to junior pilots complain about pretty much anything schedule wise with part 117 (compared to stories I've heard when it wasn't around).
 

Yakob

Grand Prognosticator Nominee
#42
I guess from my perspective, it sucks being junior and getting crappy stuff....but that's all part of the industry. It would be really odd listening to junior pilots complain about pretty much anything schedule wise with part 117 (compared to stories I've heard when it wasn't around).
Well getting crappy stuff is one thing, but getting stuff that makes it difficult for you to be properly rested and makes it so you are likely to be fatigued on duty is quite another.

I have to say though, I've never minded stand-ups. But then I fly a turboprop, so the legs are always short and unless you are delayed on departure there is a decent amount of time at the hotel. The reports in this thread of CDOs with bare minimum rest because of the length of flight time make me realize an advantage of turboprop flying I hadn't considered.
 
#43
They're hit or miss at 9E now. I'm doing some this month (should have been on one tonight, but it WX cancelled) that are 1:30+ block on the CR2, with maybe, at best, 6 hours behind the door. I know for a while the CR9 was doing things like DTW-OKC-DTW on a CDO. No thanks...
Feb 2008 Pinnacle standup DTW-DAY. Sounds short and simple enough? Diversion to CMH. Of course no one on the ground has a clue what to do approaching midnight. Get a FBO to fuel and give us paperwork. Takeoff, land at DAY. Go to hotel. Guess how long we had behind the door that night? I shoulda used a plank wood across the seats on the CR2 and camped Mesa style. Would have got at least another 1 hr sleep...
 

tcco94

Professional GTA V Pilot
#44
Well getting crappy stuff is one thing, but getting stuff that makes it difficult for you to be properly rested and makes it so you are likely to be fatigued on duty is quite another.

I have to say though, I've never minded stand-ups. But then I fly a turboprop, so the legs are always short and unless you are delayed on departure there is a decent amount of time at the hotel. The reports in this thread of CDOs with bare minimum rest because of the length of flight time make me realize an advantage of turboprop flying I hadn't considered.
Yeah, I will say some stand ups are built pretty poorly. Some are built almost like a normal overnight (as far as sleep is concerned). I've only done a few but they go very senior at my domicile. I don't like them personally but don't see a huge threat in them. Most people learn how to adjust for the sleep on stand ups. Doing multiple in a row could be a bit of a threat.
 

thevideographer

Well-Known Member
#45
I like them but doing 4-5 in a row really messes with your brain because you completely lose track of what day it is when you're only sleeping 4 hours at time.
 

Adler

Low-Level Individual
#46
Feb 2008 Pinnacle standup DTW-DAY. Sounds short and simple enough? Diversion to CMH. Of course no one on the ground has a clue what to do approaching midnight. Get a FBO to fuel and give us paperwork. Takeoff, land at DAY. Go to hotel. Guess how long we had behind the door that night? I shoulda used a plank wood across the seats on the CR2 and camped Mesa style. Would have got at least another 1 hr sleep...
The 200 seats fit just perfectly over the aisle to create a 5 across bed.
 

Richman

Well-Known Member
#49
Northwest used to have them, and they went pretty senior. They aren't bad if the flights aren't long.
Hold on there Professor....SOME of them went senior. like DTW-TVC; where the block time was :30 and you had 7:55 rest.

DTW-EWR? Yea not so senior.

Probably ok, in some way; like freight. If you prepped for it and made the proper adjustments.

OTOH, some guys might use them as a way to burn the candle at both ends. Their call, but not the way I like to roll. I still need 9 hours solid, same as I did when I was 17.
 

amorris311

Well-Known Member
#51
The history behind stand ups is really just the fact that it used to be legal to schedule someone for 16 hours of duty straight as long as in the preceding 24 hours you had 8 hours of rest. Research behind the window of circadian low, changing wake up times, and changing time zones among many other things, had not been incorporated in to the rules.

My first trip after completing training for Colgan in 2008 I was given my first introduction to flying a stand up. It was actually my first trip off of IOE. IAD - SHD - BKW - SHD - IAD. I didn't think it was too terrible because it was my first trip, and I was just plain excited.

A few months after reserving the line I began to realize just how terrible stand up overnights are, when you are not prepared for them. Remember this is all prior to 117, and before Colgan had any sort of contract, in fact it was prior to even being a part of ALPA.

So Im on reserve Monday - Friday, with a supposed 5am - 5pm on call status and then I'm called at 9am, after just waking up with a full nights sleep, with scheduling telling me that I'm going back on rest because theres a stand up that needs to be covered that evening and there is no coverage. My body clock is completely unprepared for whats about to happen.

The flight out of the hub goes ok. Its normal time. Probably a 10:15pm departure, but when I get to the Microtel in Beckley, West Virginia at midnight and I set my alarm for 4:30am, thats when I realize, this sucks. The alarm goes off and I'm in disbelief because theres no way I actually fell asleep within 30 minutes of making it to my room. I then realize I now have to complete 2 legs back home, both to uncontrolled airports. Arrival time back at the hub is about 7:30am. After I land at the hub I turn on my phone. Theres a voicemail from Gina in scheduling telling me to give them a call when I land, they may have something for me. I've been on duty for 11 hours but scheduling says they need first officer coverage to do a round trip to Shenandoah. Its only a 25 minute flight, maybe 2.5 hours in total of extra duty time, so I wont exceed 16 hours and everything is totally legal. So I plop down in the right seat of a different Saab 340 and tell the Captain that I just came off of a stand up, but "this is legal" so here I am. Thankfully at the time I made the decision to tell the captain that there was no need for the standard swapping of flying duties after each leg. All I was good for was manipulating the push to talk switch.

By the time we get back to the hub, Im about to touch 16 hours, but I dont. So everything is good. After I make my way to the employee parking lot, and then get home, its almost noon. Oh, and scheduling called again, they need me to do another stand up this evening. Ill get 9.5 hours of rest, so its legal.

Suddenly though stuff gets real..

This same airline has an accident that kills 44 passengers, 5 crew members (Joe Zuffoletto was a Colgan pilot who was commuting to Buffalo) and one person on the ground. After the whole tail-icing-up-causing-a-stall idea was shown to be false, the focus turned to rest, and how the crew didnt really get any prior to the flight. I cant recall if they were supposed to operate a stand up, but they did fly the last flight out in the evening after sitting around the airport all day after commuting in in the morning, and when I saw morning, I mean via FedEx out of Memphis landing in the early AM morning.

Colgan suddenly becomes ethical and makes up its own rules regarding stand ups and how they were going to operate them. Only 3 in a row, no extensions after you arrive back to the hub, and only 2 legs total (except for SHD/BKW triangle, and the MGW/CKB triangle.) I do seem to remember though that they hid these new self-imposed rules under a few tabs of the terrible Colgan Air website for employees, and after scheduling tried to break them on a few occasions we alerted @amorris311 & @Seggy to the hidden file, who then saved them for a later date and eventually used their own self-imposed rules, against them.

Finally after 117 was put in place a whole new set of rules took over and it was no longer legal to do what Colgan was doing.

I do want to go back to my comment that they are "terrible, when not prepared for them." After Colgan put rules on how they would structure stand up lines, I ended up bidding them for 4 months straight. It was the only way to get off weekends at this point. My schedule would be to fly a stand up on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday night. So I was off from Thursday morning until Monday evening. Stand ups worked really well when you had a captain, first officer, and flight attendant all purposely bid the same line together. The standard idea of showing up 30 minutes prior to flight to get everything ready went out the window. We all knew that we had to be on the plane 30 minutes before departure with whatever pre-flight checks being complete at that time, telling the gate agent to board them up, now. If we pushed any later than 10 minutes prior to departure then we were already behind. Everything would flow really well when you all had the same goal in mind, which was to get to the hotel as quickly as possible. On the other end of the trip, when you had the same crew, we all understood that we could ask for a shuttle or taxi time to be 15 minutes later in the morning then it was supposed to be, only because we all agreed that we'd get 15 more minutes of sleep but then work our asses off once we got to the plane.

If you ever had a reserve crew member take someones place, you would see this whole thing fall apart.

My routine after getting home was to pin up sheets over the windows to black out the room, and then pass out for 8 hours. I had it all worked out, until someone senior to me realized I was never working and had weekends off. It took me 3 solid weeks of normal flying to get my body clock back.
@L-16B and I want to congratulate you on the upgrade! ;)
 

Kingairer

Well-Known Member
#52
3 in a row, good to go, but no more. My criteria was (as if it mattered) that the flight needed to be under 1 hour. As long as everything went well they were great. Add in a departure delay and some de-icing and your 7 or 8 hours behind the door could become 4 or 5, no good. Whatever the stand-up, they are way way better than any transcon redeye.
 

N519AT

Ahh! This is how I change this!
#53
Had quite a few bad standups at my former turboprop airline...

Bid my first month of standups about 8 months in because it was either that or reserve. This was pre-117

One of the first ones I did was supposed to be CLE-ERI, 8 hours behind the door at the hotel and ERI-CLE back in the AM. Really pretty good for a standup. Scheduling called on my way into the airport. I was now operating CLE-ERI tonight, then repo ERI-CLE back right away because they were having to use a spare airplane that had an inspection due at midnight which made it unairworthy in the AM (call it a A check). Also, ERI was closing at 10:30PM for runway construction and we were blocking in at 10:05 so we had to turn and burn to get out before the airport clsoed. Once getting to CLE, we were supposed to repo back to ERI to fly the revenue flight out in the AM. Oh, by the way, that hotel that I was supposed to get in ERI doesn't transfer to CLE because I was based there and they wouldn't do in-base hotel rooms for crews. Even after a call to the CP.

So we grudgingly fly CLE-ERI and on final at about 500 feet we smoked a bat on the right inboard flap. The Captain called it into MX and they said since we were doing a Part 91 Repo we didn't have to get it inspected. He quoted the GOM to the MX guy stating that anytime the airplane impacts anything it needs to be inspected. That cancelled the repo and they were going to drive a MX crew out to ERI to complete the bird strike inspection and the A check....or so we thought. We come out and all that's signed off is the bird strike. Call up MX and they say, nope the A-check isn't due for another 20 hours (or some ridiculous number). We were pretty furious about that.

Another one (post 117)...

I'm a new Captain, with maybe 80 hours in the left seat. Flying IAD-ROC at 10:15PM on a hot sticky July night. We pushback on time, taxi out and ground informs us that our route is closed due to a nice line of weather from ROC-HAR-CSN. Sit in the pad until 11:30 or so before we need to head back for gas. Thunderstorms are still going strong and tracking east at maybe 15 mph. Finally around 12:30 we launch for ROC. Had an FO with me that made me think I might get better use out of a paper weight in the right seat. Dodging thunderstorms, climbed a very heavy Dash 8-300 up to FL230 to get on top of some of the crap and be able to at least see the thunderstorms in the moonlight. Finally make it to ROC around 2am. Get to the hotel around 2:25 and filled out the sign in sheet for a 4:30 van. At some point during all of this, scheduling called me to inform me that they were reverting my schedule to table B (their favorite phrase I swear).

In the same month as the last one or a month after I learned that you're only allowed to revert to table B and infringe on your WOCL 3 (or 4) times in a row in one stretch of split duties before you NEED 10 hours of rest in your WOCL. Flew IAD-ROC (this time as an FO when I was a CQF) to get there around 3:45am. It was so late we didn't bother going to the hotel and instead waited outside the airport McDonalds to open at 4:30am for some food then fly back to Dulles. Around 4:20 when the new scheduling shift started I got a phone call saying I had to go to the hotel for 10 hours of rest because I hadn't gotten the mandatory 4 hours behind the door that a split duty requires the last 3 nights.

Another time flying IAD-CRW as an CQF (FO seat again)... we launch on time with an airplane that had been written up for torque surges. MX checked it out, signed it off and passed it to us. We took off, sure enough torque surging starts around 400 feet. Kept that engine running, join the downwind and return to the airport. Scheduling had an airplane waiting for us to take to CRW when we got on the ground. We took a few minutes to collect ourselves. That one didn't turn out all that bad with probably 4-4.5 behind the door.

I have tons of these stories... Anything that can go wrong on a standup, will. I did have a few that went off without a hitch..but those were few and far between it seemed like. In Dulles dispatch particularly enjoyed dumping the broken airplanes on standup crews because they had all night for MX to fix them.
 
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Soul Brotha'

Well-Known Member
#55
BlueJuice factory when I first started b4 117 had JFK-SJU/SDQ/STI/-JFK as redeye turns. Leave around midnight and back at 8am. The sun coming up on the return leg was murder. Redeye turns consist of MCO-BQN/PSE-MCO for me now. 2 in a row is the most I can do. For some reason west coast redeye flying does not bother me.
 
#56
Had quite a few bad standups at my former turboprop airline...

Bid my first month of standups about 8 months in because it was either that or reserve. This was pre-117

One of the first ones I did was supposed to be CLE-ERI, 8 hours behind the door at the hotel and ERI-CLE back in the AM. Really pretty good for a standup. Scheduling called on my way into the airport. I was now operating CLE-ERI tonight, then repo ERI-CLE back right away because they were having to use a spare airplane that had an inspection due at midnight which made it unairworthy in the AM (call it a A check). Also, ERI was closing at 10:30PM for runway construction and we were blocking in at 10:05 so we had to turn and burn to get out before the airport clsoed. Once getting to CLE, we were supposed to repo back to ERI to fly the revenue flight out in the AM. Oh, by the way, that hotel that I was supposed to get in ERI doesn't transfer to CLE because I was based there and they wouldn't do in-base hotel rooms for crews. Even after a call to the CP.

So we grudgingly fly CLE-ERI and on final at about 500 feet we smoked a bat on the right inboard flap. The Captain called it into MX and they said since we were doing a Part 91 Repo we didn't have to get it inspected. He quoted the GOM to the MX guy stating that anytime the airplane impacts anything it needs to be inspected. That cancelled the repo and they were going to drive a MX crew out to ERI to complete the bird strike inspection and the A check....or so we thought. We come out and all that's signed off is the bird strike. Call up MX and they say, nope the A-check isn't due for another 20 hours (or some ridiculous number). We were pretty furious about that.

Another one (post 117)...

I'm a new Captain, with maybe 80 hours in the left seat. Flying IAD-ROC at 10:15PM on a hot sticky July night. We pushback on time, taxi out and ground informs us that our route is closed due to a nice line of weather from ROC-HAR-CSN. Sit in the pad until 11:30 or so before we need to head back for gas. Thunderstorms are still going strong and tracking east at maybe 15 mph. Finally around 12:30 we launch for ROC. Had an FO with me that made me think I might get better use out of a paper weight in the right seat. Dodging thunderstorms, climbed a very heavy Dash 8-300 up to FL230 to get on top of some of the crap and be able to at least see the thunderstorms in the moonlight. Finally make it to ROC around 2am. Get to the hotel around 2:25 and filled out the sign in sheet for a 4:30 van. At some point during all of this, scheduling called me to inform me that they were reverting my schedule to table B (their favorite phrase I swear).

In the same month as the last one or a month after I learned that you're only allowed to revert to table B and infringe on your WOCL 3 (or 4) times in a row in one stretch of split duties before you NEED 10 hours of rest in your WOCL. Flew IAD-ROC (this time as an FO when I was a CQF) to get there around 3:45am. It was so late we didn't bother going to the hotel and instead waited outside the airport McDonalds to open at 4:30am for some food then fly back to Dulles. Around 4:20 when the new scheduling shift started I got a phone call saying I had to go to the hotel for 10 hours of rest because I hadn't gotten the mandatory 4 hours behind the door that a split duty requires the last 3 nights.

Another time flying IAD-CRW as an CQF (FO seat again)... we launch on time with an airplane that had been written up for torque surges. MX checked it out, signed it off and passed it to us. We took off, sure enough torque surging starts around 400 feet. Kept that engine running, join the downwind and return to the airport. Scheduling had an airplane waiting for us to take to CRW when we got on the ground. We took a few minutes to collect ourselves. That one didn't turn out all that bad with probably 4-4.5 behind the door.

I have tons of these stories... Anything that can go wrong on a standup, will. I did have a few that went off without a hitch..but those were few and far between it seemed like. In Dulles dispatch particularly enjoyed dumping the broken airplanes on standup crews because they had all night for MX to fix them.
Where are you at these days?
 

bimmerphile

SuperCritical™ Member
#57
Had quite a few bad standups at my former turboprop airline...

Bid my first month of standups about 8 months in because it was either that or reserve. This was pre-117

One of the first ones I did was supposed to be CLE-ERI, 8 hours behind the door at the hotel and ERI-CLE back in the AM. Really pretty good for a standup. Scheduling called on my way into the airport. I was now operating CLE-ERI tonight, then repo ERI-CLE back right away because they were having to use a spare airplane that had an inspection due at midnight which made it unairworthy in the AM (call it a A check). Also, ERI was closing at 10:30PM for runway construction and we were blocking in at 10:05 so we had to turn and burn to get out before the airport clsoed. Once getting to CLE, we were supposed to repo back to ERI to fly the revenue flight out in the AM. Oh, by the way, that hotel that I was supposed to get in ERI doesn't transfer to CLE because I was based there and they wouldn't do in-base hotel rooms for crews. Even after a call to the CP.

So we grudgingly fly CLE-ERI and on final at about 500 feet we smoked a bat on the right inboard flap. The Captain called it into MX and they said since we were doing a Part 91 Repo we didn't have to get it inspected. He quoted the GOM to the MX guy stating that anytime the airplane impacts anything it needs to be inspected. That cancelled the repo and they were going to drive a MX crew out to ERI to complete the bird strike inspection and the A check....or so we thought. We come out and all that's signed off is the bird strike. Call up MX and they say, nope the A-check isn't due for another 20 hours (or some ridiculous number). We were pretty furious about that.

Another one (post 117)...

I'm a new Captain, with maybe 80 hours in the left seat. Flying IAD-ROC at 10:15PM on a hot sticky July night. We pushback on time, taxi out and ground informs us that our route is closed due to a nice line of weather from ROC-HAR-CSN. Sit in the pad until 11:30 or so before we need to head back for gas. Thunderstorms are still going strong and tracking east at maybe 15 mph. Finally around 12:30 we launch for ROC. Had an FO with me that made me think I might get better use out of a paper weight in the right seat. Dodging thunderstorms, climbed a very heavy Dash 8-300 up to FL230 to get on top of some of the crap and be able to at least see the thunderstorms in the moonlight. Finally make it to ROC around 2am. Get to the hotel around 2:25 and filled out the sign in sheet for a 4:30 van. At some point during all of this, scheduling called me to inform me that they were reverting my schedule to table B (their favorite phrase I swear).

In the same month as the last one or a month after I learned that you're only allowed to revert to table B and infringe on your WOCL 3 (or 4) times in a row in one stretch of split duties before you NEED 10 hours of rest in your WOCL. Flew IAD-ROC (this time as an FO when I was a CQF) to get there around 3:45am. It was so late we didn't bother going to the hotel and instead waited outside the airport McDonalds to open at 4:30am for some food then fly back to Dulles. Around 4:20 when the new scheduling shift started I got a phone call saying I had to go to the hotel for 10 hours of rest because I hadn't gotten the mandatory 4 hours behind the door that a split duty requires the last 3 nights.

Another time flying IAD-CRW as an CQF (FO seat again)... we launch on time with an airplane that had been written up for torque surges. MX checked it out, signed it off and passed it to us. We took off, sure enough torque surging starts around 400 feet. Kept that engine running, join the downwind and return to the airport. Scheduling had an airplane waiting for us to take to CRW when we got on the ground. We took a few minutes to collect ourselves. That one didn't turn out all that bad with probably 4-4.5 behind the door.

I have tons of these stories... Anything that can go wrong on a standup, will. I did have a few that went off without a hitch..but those were few and far between it seemed like. In Dulles dispatch particularly enjoyed dumping the broken airplanes on standup crews because they had all night for MX to fix them.

the more things change here, the more they stay the same...
 

CFIscare

Well-Known Member
#58
We had a couple of good ones at Eaglevoy, such as DFW-ACT (Waco, TX). It was a 1.5 hour...drive. The quickest flight time I had was I believe 10 minutes, followed by 8 hours in the hotel.