Split Duty/Stand-up History

MtnFlyer00

Well-Known Member
#21
A FedEx nighttime "hub turn" is essentially a stand-up but in reverse.

8-9pm fly ATL-MEM arriving around 11-midnight. Grab a sleep room in the hub AOC till about 2:30-3am, 3-4am you launch for ATL (or somewhere else) arriving at 5-7am. Rinse, repeat for about 3-4 days.

We've got some longer ones too... BTV-SYR-IND, 2-3 hour nap, IND-BNA.
 

Nark

Well-Known Member
#22
Red eye's suck, sort of.

ORD-LAS-ORD
ORD-PHX-ORD

Show was something like 1700, release 0700.
2 day trips, but they're not paid as 2 days.

However some of the gold we have in our contract, segments flown between 02-06 (I think, might start at 1-5...) require a hotel room. I.e. No more flying until we get legal rest.
 
#23
I'm not who you quoted, but here ya go...

Noon pick up for a 3 pm departure. Supposed to fly to Italy, then Ibiza, then back to St. Petersburg, with 8 hours of flying, scheduled to arrive in St. Petersburg at 0100, with a noon departure to Italy the next day. Original boss shows up 4 hours late, and delays in ibiza cause us to arrive in St. Petersburg at 0730. We still departed at noon with the other boss for a 4 hours flight. I slept 12 hours after that.

"Part 91" international large cabin... happened last rotation.
I took a pill in Ibiza once!
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
#24
I've never been a fan of them. At PSA we used to have a few lines of them that tended to go pretty senior. They were limited to 3 days on in a row and mandated at least 2 days off. You could get could ones like CLT-AVL or PIT-ERI. There were also really bad ones. I only did a few while on reserve but I remember one CLT-MSY that had a 30 minute van ride tacked on both ends with about 3 hours in the hotel that really sucked. Especially because CLT was fogged in when we got back and we ended up diverting and timing out.

We used to have a flight that got in to CHA at the exact same time that a 9E crew from Memphis landed on a highspeed. We shared a common hotel, so it was always a race. If they got there first there was no way the hotel van waited because they only had 5 hours of rest. If we got there first and had heard them on the radio with approach prior to us landing, I'd have the van wait as we had a 18 hour overnight anyways.

Current shop does a few CDOs, but they are all heavy crewed. We send 3 guys down to Pago. They leave late afternoon, fly 5 hours, sit on the ground for a few hours and then come back up and get home around 5am. We also send a 4 man crew to Tahiti around the same time. It tends to go pretty senior as you can get 10 to 12 hours of flying in about 15 hours of duty time and then go home.
 

Dexter

Hop off there, Blonde Ambition Tour
#26
Compass had a LAX-GEG standup with around 4.5-5 behind the door. That was pretty bad, but transcon redeyes are still worse.
 

v1valarob

Well-Known Member
#27
Does anyone know the history behind stand-ups? Have they been around forever? Does mainline do them? How did they get approved in Part 117? Was there ever any talk of making them illegal or changing them?

Side question: When you do a stand-up do you try to get some sleep for a couple hours or do you just stay awake and sleep when you get home?
The history behind stand ups is really just the fact that it used to be legal to schedule someone for 16 hours of duty straight as long as in the preceding 24 hours you had 8 hours of rest. Research behind the window of circadian low, changing wake up times, and changing time zones among many other things, had not been incorporated in to the rules.

My first trip after completing training for Colgan in 2008 I was given my first introduction to flying a stand up. It was actually my first trip off of IOE. IAD - SHD - BKW - SHD - IAD. I didn't think it was too terrible because it was my first trip, and I was just plain excited.

A few months after reserving the line I began to realize just how terrible stand up overnights are, when you are not prepared for them. Remember this is all prior to 117, and before Colgan had any sort of contract, in fact it was prior to even being a part of ALPA.

So Im on reserve Monday - Friday, with a supposed 5am - 5pm on call status and then I'm called at 9am, after just waking up with a full nights sleep, with scheduling telling me that I'm going back on rest because theres a stand up that needs to be covered that evening and there is no coverage. My body clock is completely unprepared for whats about to happen.

The flight out of the hub goes ok. Its normal time. Probably a 10:15pm departure, but when I get to the Microtel in Beckley, West Virginia at midnight and I set my alarm for 4:30am, thats when I realize, this sucks. The alarm goes off and I'm in disbelief because theres no way I actually fell asleep within 30 minutes of making it to my room. I then realize I now have to complete 2 legs back home, both to uncontrolled airports. Arrival time back at the hub is about 7:30am. After I land at the hub I turn on my phone. Theres a voicemail from Gina in scheduling telling me to give them a call when I land, they may have something for me. I've been on duty for 11 hours but scheduling says they need first officer coverage to do a round trip to Shenandoah. Its only a 25 minute flight, maybe 2.5 hours in total of extra duty time, so I wont exceed 16 hours and everything is totally legal. So I plop down in the right seat of a different Saab 340 and tell the Captain that I just came off of a stand up, but "this is legal" so here I am. Thankfully at the time I made the decision to tell the captain that there was no need for the standard swapping of flying duties after each leg. All I was good for was manipulating the push to talk switch.

By the time we get back to the hub, Im about to touch 16 hours, but I dont. So everything is good. After I make my way to the employee parking lot, and then get home, its almost noon. Oh, and scheduling called again, they need me to do another stand up this evening. Ill get 9.5 hours of rest, so its legal.

Suddenly though stuff gets real..

This same airline has an accident that kills 44 passengers, 5 crew members (Joe Zuffoletto was a Colgan pilot who was commuting to Buffalo) and one person on the ground. After the whole tail-icing-up-causing-a-stall idea was shown to be false, the focus turned to rest, and how the crew didnt really get any prior to the flight. I cant recall if they were supposed to operate a stand up, but they did fly the last flight out in the evening after sitting around the airport all day after commuting in in the morning, and when I saw morning, I mean via FedEx out of Memphis landing in the early AM morning.

Colgan suddenly becomes ethical and makes up its own rules regarding stand ups and how they were going to operate them. Only 3 in a row, no extensions after you arrive back to the hub, and only 2 legs total (except for SHD/BKW triangle, and the MGW/CKB triangle.) I do seem to remember though that they hid these new self-imposed rules under a few tabs of the terrible Colgan Air website for employees, and after scheduling tried to break them on a few occasions we alerted @amorris311 & @Seggy to the hidden file, who then saved them for a later date and eventually used their own self-imposed rules, against them.

Finally after 117 was put in place a whole new set of rules took over and it was no longer legal to do what Colgan was doing.

I do want to go back to my comment that they are "terrible, when not prepared for them." After Colgan put rules on how they would structure stand up lines, I ended up bidding them for 4 months straight. It was the only way to get off weekends at this point. My schedule would be to fly a stand up on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday night. So I was off from Thursday morning until Monday evening. Stand ups worked really well when you had a captain, first officer, and flight attendant all purposely bid the same line together. The standard idea of showing up 30 minutes prior to flight to get everything ready went out the window. We all knew that we had to be on the plane 30 minutes before departure with whatever pre-flight checks being complete at that time, telling the gate agent to board them up, now. If we pushed any later than 10 minutes prior to departure then we were already behind. Everything would flow really well when you all had the same goal in mind, which was to get to the hotel as quickly as possible. On the other end of the trip, when you had the same crew, we all understood that we could ask for a shuttle or taxi time to be 15 minutes later in the morning then it was supposed to be, only because we all agreed that we'd get 15 more minutes of sleep but then work our asses off once we got to the plane.

If you ever had a reserve crew member take someones place, you would see this whole thing fall apart.

My routine after getting home was to pin up sheets over the windows to black out the room, and then pass out for 8 hours. I had it all worked out, until someone senior to me realized I was never working and had weekends off. It took me 3 solid weeks of normal flying to get my body clock back.
 

poser765

Well-Known Member
#28
We used to do CDOs at my current airline. I haven't seen any in a while. I didn't mind them for the most part. They were typically one leg to an outstation, 4-5 hours in the hotel then one leg back in the morning. The legs where about 1-2 hours in length. Not bad.

I had a CDO line shortly after I upgraded. It would be three nights scheduled in a row, then some days off. Again, i didn't mind. I don't sleep that much most nights, so around 4.5 hours of sleep works pretty well for me. The only problem is the company only paid out min day for the high speed. Not really worth it.
 

Roger Roger

Paid to sleep, fly for fun
#29
The history behind stand ups is really just the fact that it used to be legal to schedule someone for 16 hours of duty straight as long as in the preceding 24 hours you had 8 hours of rest. Research behind the window of circadian low, changing wake up times, and changing time zones among many other things, had not been incorporated in to the rules.

My first trip after completing training for Colgan in 2008 I was given my first introduction to flying a stand up. It was actually my first trip off of IOE. IAD - SHD - BKW - SHD - IAD. I didn't think it was too terrible because it was my first trip, and I was just plain excited.

A few months after reserving the line I began to realize just how terrible stand up overnights are, when you are not prepared for them. Remember this is all prior to 117, and before Colgan had any sort of contract, in fact it was prior to even being a part of ALPA.

So Im on reserve Monday - Friday, with a supposed 5am - 5pm on call status and then I'm called at 9am, after just waking up with a full nights sleep, with scheduling telling me that I'm going back on rest because theres a stand up that needs to be covered that evening and there is no coverage. My body clock is completely unprepared for whats about to happen.

The flight out of the hub goes ok. Its normal time. Probably a 10:15pm departure, but when I get to the Microtel in Beckley, West Virginia at midnight and I set my alarm for 4:30am, thats when I realize, this sucks. The alarm goes off and I'm in disbelief because theres no way I actually fell asleep within 30 minutes of making it to my room. I then realize I now have to complete 2 legs back home, both to uncontrolled airports. Arrival time back at the hub is about 7:30am. After I land at the hub I turn on my phone. Theres a voicemail from Gina in scheduling telling me to give them a call when I land, they may have something for me. I've been on duty for 11 hours but scheduling says they need first officer coverage to do a round trip to Shenandoah. Its only a 25 minute flight, maybe 2.5 hours in total of extra duty time, so I wont exceed 16 hours and everything is totally legal. So I plop down in the right seat of a different Saab 340 and tell the Captain that I just came off of a stand up, but "this is legal" so here I am. Thankfully at the time I made the decision to tell the captain that there was no need for the standard swapping of flying duties after each leg. All I was good for was manipulating the push to talk switch.

By the time we get back to the hub, Im about to touch 16 hours, but I dont. So everything is good. After I make my way to the employee parking lot, and then get home, its almost noon. Oh, and scheduling called again, they need me to do another stand up this evening. Ill get 9.5 hours of rest, so its legal.

Suddenly though stuff gets real..

This same airline has an accident that kills 44 passengers, 5 crew members (Joe Zuffoletto was a Colgan pilot who was commuting to Buffalo) and one person on the ground. After the whole tail-icing-up-causing-a-stall idea was shown to be false, the focus turned to rest, and how the crew didnt really get any prior to the flight. I cant recall if they were supposed to operate a stand up, but they did fly the last flight out in the evening after sitting around the airport all day after commuting in in the morning, and when I saw morning, I mean via FedEx out of Memphis landing in the early AM morning.

Colgan suddenly becomes ethical and makes up its own rules regarding stand ups and how they were going to operate them. Only 3 in a row, no extensions after you arrive back to the hub, and only 2 legs total (except for SHD/BKW triangle, and the MGW/CKB triangle.) I do seem to remember though that they hid these new self-imposed rules under a few tabs of the terrible Colgan Air website for employees, and after scheduling tried to break them on a few occasions we alerted @amorris311 & @Seggy to the hidden file, who then saved them for a later date and eventually used their own self-imposed rules, against them.

Finally after 117 was put in place a whole new set of rules took over and it was no longer legal to do what Colgan was doing.

I do want to go back to my comment that they are "terrible, when not prepared for them." After Colgan put rules on how they would structure stand up lines, I ended up bidding them for 4 months straight. It was the only way to get off weekends at this point. My schedule would be to fly a stand up on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday night. So I was off from Thursday morning until Monday evening. Stand ups worked really well when you had a captain, first officer, and flight attendant all purposely bid the same line together. The standard idea of showing up 30 minutes prior to flight to get everything ready went out the window. We all knew that we had to be on the plane 30 minutes before departure with whatever pre-flight checks being complete at that time, telling the gate agent to board them up, now. If we pushed any later than 10 minutes prior to departure then we were already behind. Everything would flow really well when you all had the same goal in mind, which was to get to the hotel as quickly as possible. On the other end of the trip, when you had the same crew, we all understood that we could ask for a shuttle or taxi time to be 15 minutes later in the morning then it was supposed to be, only because we all agreed that we'd get 15 more minutes of sleep but then work our asses off once we got to the plane.

If you ever had a reserve crew member take someones place, you would see this whole thing fall apart.

My routine after getting home was to pin up sheets over the windows to black out the room, and then pass out for 8 hours. I had it all worked out, until someone senior to me realized I was never working and had weekends off. It took me 3 solid weeks of normal flying to get my body clock back.
Dat #hardproplife tho
 

BEEF SUPREME

Well-Known Member
#30
You got us all primed up... let's hear a few ball buster stories.
Red eye from Kona to Austin. Arrive at 3:30 am. Chief is too cheap to get us a car so we wait until about 4 to get into the hotel, 430 to the room. Get back to the airport around 9 or 10. Departure before noon for CVX. Pick up. Depart for HWD. Pick up. Depart for Kona. We were so tired we left the batteries plugged in. Because we only got a few hours of sleep in a hotel before airlining out the next day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

mastermags

Well-Known Member *giggity*
#31
We used to do ATL-YUL at ASA. Nothing like a 3.5 hour flight, Canadian customs at midnight, standing in the freezing cold for the hotel bus downtown (where we stayed), maybe 2.5 hours behind the door, back to the airport at 4 am, Canadian security, customs again, 5:30 departure, get in deice line, 3.5 flight back...

And that's if everything goes right. Any big delay and you just time out.

ATL-ABY was a far superior nap.
 
#33
I had been bidding them, simply to make myself a line holder, at which point I could do vertical trades to regular flying with reasonable consistency. Up until this month, at which the point has "changed their interpretation of an LOA" and now aren't allowing it. Not sure what I want to bid until the process of getting that little gem fixed is.
 

BEEF SUPREME

Well-Known Member
#34
You got us all primed up... let's hear a few ball buster stories.
Here's another good one. Warriors win the championships. We walk to a hotel to get some rest. No one tells me anything that is going on. So I go to bed. Chief calls me angry AF the next morning. Where are you! Uh. I'm sleeping. Did you see the txt! No I was sleeping.

Never again I tell you. Never again.
 

Baronman

Well-Known Member
#35
We used to do ATL-YUL at ASA. Nothing like a 3.5 hour flight, Canadian customs at midnight, standing in the freezing cold for the hotel bus downtown (where we stayed), maybe 2.5 hours behind the door, back to the airport at 4 am, Canadian security, customs again, 5:30 departure, get in deice line, 3.5 flight back...
.
That's just stupid... as much as I enjoyed YUL, with less than 12 hours there was no point to heading downtown. Thankfully we had a short hotel @ the airport.
 
#37
Red eye's suck, sort of.

ORD-LAS-ORD
ORD-PHX-ORD

Show was something like 1700, release 0700.
2 day trips, but they're not paid as 2 days.

However some of the gold we have in our contract, segments flown between 02-06 (I think, might start at 1-5...) require a hotel room. I.e. No more flying until we get legal rest.
The ones I've done beat me up worse than the long haul stuff we do. ANC-CVG with a two man crew you're in the seat just as long, if not longer than I was from NGO-CVG yesterday with a 4 man crew. I got 5 solid hours of sleep.
 
#38
We used to do ATL-YUL at ASA. Nothing like a 3.5 hour flight, Canadian customs at midnight, standing in the freezing cold for the hotel bus downtown (where we stayed), maybe 2.5 hours behind the door, back to the airport at 4 am, Canadian security, customs again, 5:30 departure, get in deice line, 3.5 flight back...

And that's if everything goes right. Any big delay and you just time out.

ATL-ABY was a far superior nap.
At least the hotel sucked.
 

tcco94

Professional GTA V Pilot
#39
Why would they change them/make them illegal? And why would a pilot be the one throwing this opinion out to do so?
 
#40
Why would they change them/make them illegal? And why would a pilot be the one throwing this opinion out to do so?
Because not all airlines do they go senior enough to be a choice to do them. I especially hated them on reserve because I didn't know about them in advance enough to adjust my sleep
 
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