So since the sixties there are no airliners which you can feel

dlcmdrx

Well-Known Member
From another forums discussion regarding Airbus.

Controls with no feedback.
We abandoned those in early 1960s, except for general aviation, some medium turboprops and technical marvels from Long Beach. Just watch the furious answers to this.
So, is it true that no airliner gives you a feel of heaviness or mushiness aproaching a Stall?? Im sorry but i have a hard time believing this.

( havent jumped to the airlines jet so is till dont have jet experience )
 

ClearedForOption

French Computer Programmer and Systems Monitor
Okay... I'm a reserve guy, so I fly very sporadically - so I'm probably a bit behind on the power curve compared to people that I know that were basically line holders right out of the gate. Yes, it is a 'problem.' There really is no feedback... not compared to the DC-9 or MD-80, or even the RJ that I flew. But, strangely enough, when I pull back on the Atari stick... the nose goes up, when I push down... the nose goes down.

I ask everyone I fly with... when do you get used to it? They all say that you do.

For instance, I was flying a trip back into LAX... for the 200 miles prior to the airport I was telling the Capt. that I suck the big one, I'm a reserve pilot, hold on... this is going to be a 'great' landing, and etc. Then it's "Fifty", "Thirty", and three "Retards" - and I greased it on. She yelled at me all the way back to the gate. I considered it a victory.

And I've had complaints from Captains that they were going to send me the chiropractic bill.

In the end... an airplane is an airplane. You adapt to the equipment that you fly, and you FLY your equipment. There are appropriate stall warnings built into the systems. You feel 'buffets' when in the low speed regime.

I actually like the Airbus. I have been assimilated.
 

seagull

Well-Known Member
I think the comments expand beyond Airbus. Once you have hydraulic controls with no direct cables, then all the "feel" in the column is artificial. You really do not have the same changes of forces you would have with cable. Depending on the design, you may or may not have additional force required to continue to slow the aircraft down, but that is really not something that should be considered, as the reality is that the circumstances where the stalls occur (such as high altitude) result in much different forces in any event, so many of the cues you would have in your light aircraft simply do not apply.
 

Autothrust Blue

"...I know bait when I see it..."
I think the comments expand beyond Airbus. Once you have hydraulic controls with no direct cables, then all the "feel" in the column is artificial. You really do not have the same changes of forces you would have with cable. Depending on the design, you may or may not have additional force required to continue to slow the aircraft down, but that is really not something that should be considered, as the reality is that the circumstances where the stalls occur (such as high altitude) result in much different forces in any event, so many of the cues you would have in your light aircraft simply do not apply.
An EMB-145 with no aileron artificial feel is "sporty" - we did this in my ERJ initial on flight control malfunction day. All of a sudden the ailerons become finger-light while the pitch control (mechanical) remains unchanged.
 

seagull

Well-Known Member
That raises a good point. The mode changes, control laws and degraded modes of operation can be dramatically different than normal handling qualities. There really is no parallel in a light airplane.
 

TFaudree_ERAU

Mashin' dem buttons
It probably sounds backwards, but I think I've gotten a better feeling in my pants...err..um...wait. I think I get a better seat of the pants feel in the Challenger than I did in the Hawker or Lear. You have to feel the airplane being displaced through a means other than the controls, and the seat is where that is. For the first 25 hours of flying it, I was exactly one half of a control input behind the airplane. The first crosswind landing was downright scary.
 

Screaming_Emu

Dogsheep
The first crosswind landing was downright scary.
Yup. I was hired straight onto the CRJ-700, which has a pretty significant negative angle of attack on the ground, so crosswinds don't mess with it as much. About two years into my super regional career (it hurts to call it a career...it really does) I switched to the -200. Started out with full aileron controls in for the crosswind takeoff. Half way through I think "there's no way I need this much" and start to back it out and the airplane starts to lean. Pretty crazy. Doesn't help that the wings aren't particularly far from the ground.
 

Pépé le Pilot

Well-Known Member
Wether you like or not Airbus, once you fly it, well you fly it. It takes 10 minutes to get adjusted to the sidestick and the fact that you don't get any sort of feedback has a positive side when it goes into degraded mode. It just stays like that, you might lose protections, but for a given input you get the same effect on control surface deflection no matter what mode you're in, relative to a/c speed of course.
 

dasleben

That's just, like, your opinion, man
Yup. I was hired straight onto the CRJ-700, which has a pretty significant negative angle of attack on the ground, so crosswinds don't mess with it as much. About two years into my super regional career (it hurts to call it a career...it really does) I switched to the -200. Started out with full aileron controls in for the crosswind takeoff. Half way through I think "there's no way I need this much" and start to back it out and the airplane starts to lean. Pretty crazy. Doesn't help that the wings aren't particularly far from the ground.
Do you guys have roll spoilers on that thing? Ours is a little back-assward during a crosswind takeoff; start with ailerons neutral, and gradually feed the input in as you accelerate.

Speaking of which, you want a numb airplane, come fly the 767. It's like driving an old Cadillac with way too much power steering boost. Light on both roll and pitch axes, and even worse in roll at slow speeds with the inboard ailerons drooped with the flaps. Fingertip airplane.
 

Screaming_Emu

Dogsheep
Do you guys have roll spoilers on that thing? Ours is a little back-assward during a crosswind takeoff; start with ailerons neutral, and gradually feed the input in as you accelerate.

Speaking of which, you want a numb airplane, come fly the 767. It's like driving an old Cadillac with way too much power steering boost. Light on both roll and pitch axes, and even worse in roll at slow speeds with the inboard ailerons drooped with the flaps. Fingertip airplane.
Yup, but only one panel is a spoileron.
 

Autothrust Blue

"...I know bait when I see it..."
Mad dog is fairly manual still.


Sent from my TRS-80
I guess in the spirit of explaining what I said above, the EMB-145 has mechanical pitch control, with hydraulically actuated ailerons and rudder.

The EMB-120 has just the hydraulic rudder with mechanical roll and pitch.

So there are a few...
 

N519AT

Ahh! This is how I change this!
Dash 8-200/300 is mechanical roll+pitch with hydraulically actuated rudder.
 

Autothrust Blue

"...I know bait when I see it..."
Dash 8-200/300 is mechanical roll+pitch with hydraulically actuated rudder.
I never flew it but I think the ATR is the same way. (I seem to remember that it's vulnerable to the same sort of roll upsets as the Brasilia, which means that it has non-power ailerons.)
 

shdw

Well-Known Member
Once you have hydraulic controls with no direct cables, then all the "feel" in the column is artificial.
Once counter balances, springs, etc are...Well I think you see where I'm going. Point is, even cabled a/c use artificial control balancing to modify stick force and hinge moments to within some historically acceptable range. Hydraulics are no different a beast than the weights we check in our 172 in this regard.


OP - Something to keep in mind regarding stall: transport category aircraft are typically of a delta wing design, which means the tip stalls long before the root. This stall pattern explains the necessity for stick shakers and other stall devices in these aircraft. I would imagine a complete wing stall is near impossible to achieve in this class of aircraft. Could anyone flying them confirm?
 

seagull

Well-Known Member
Once counter balances, springs, etc are...Well I think you see where I'm going. Point is, even cabled a/c use artificial control balancing to modify stick force and hinge moments to within some historically acceptable range. Hydraulics are no different a beast than the weights we check in our 172 in this regard.


OP - Something to keep in mind regarding stall: transport category aircraft are typically of a delta wing design, which means the tip stalls long before the root. This stall pattern explains the necessity for stick shakers and other stall devices in these aircraft. I would imagine a complete wing stall is near impossible to achieve in this class of aircraft. Could anyone flying them confirm?
Tip stall could happen, but there is generally a lot of washout to offset it. Why would you not be able to get to a stall? Even absent the wing twist or similar, all that would occur is unpleasant stall characteristics. The larger transports have some stall protection, but the stall itself is generally relatively docile. That, in itself, creates a different set of risk factors.
 

shdw

Well-Known Member
Tip stall could happen, but there is generally a lot of washout to offset it. Why would you not be able to get to a stall?
To stall, sure. A complete wing stall? This is what I'm unsure of. Consider the hershey bar wing in our trainers is rarely fully stalled even when we take it to buffet; the tips are still flying (which is why ailerons have some usefulness).

It is my understanding that a delta wing, regardless of washout and other such devices, is doomed to always stall from tip to root. By the time the root has stalled you'll have a full wing stall, with the tips in a deep stall. Thus is the necessity for a stick shaker.

Are the stalls not docile because they are recovered before the wing has completely stalled? Do you take a stall beyond the shaker and pusher to complete stall in the sim? In the aircraft?
 
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