So Did I Pass ??

JEP

Malko In Charge
Staff member
NTSB Identification: LAX04LA062
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, December 07, 2003 in Snelling, CA
Aircraft: Cessna 172N, registration: N739SU
Injuries: 2 Uninjured.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On December 7, 2003, at 1600 Pacific standard time, a Cessna 172N, N739SU, lost engine power and collided with the ground while executing a forced landing 8 miles west of Snelling, California. The American School of Aviation was operating the airplane under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91. The student pilot and a designated examiner were not injured, and the airplane was substantially damaged. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and no flight plan had been filed. The instructional flight originated at Castle Airport, Atwater, California, at 1545.

The student pilot reported to the Safety Board investigator that about 10 minutes into his private pilot check flight, at 3,000 feet, the engine made a loud noise and smoke entered the cockpit. The smoke seemed to originate from the engine. The engine lost power and was not responding to throttle adjustments. The designated examiner took the airplane's controls and selected a green field into which to perform a forced landing. During the landing touchdown the nose wheel caught the ground, and the airplane nosed over on to its back. The aircrew safely egressed the airplane.
 

sorrygottarunway

Well-Known Member
Why didn't the DE see if the student could handle this? Nothing like a real life situation to get your blood going...

Or maybe he was just scared for his life?
-B
 

tonyw

Well-Known Member
And who gets the nasty note on his record? The guy taking the test or the examiner?
 

mtsu_av8er

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
And who gets the nasty note on his record? The guy taking the test or the examiner?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's in the report that the DE "took the controls...". I'd pin it on him!!!!
 

E_Dawg

Moderator
Yeah they always tell you that it's your airplane and you're PIC during the ride. Maybe the student pilot asked the DE to take it.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah they always tell you that it's your airplane and you're PIC during the ride. Maybe the student pilot asked the DE to take it.

[/ QUOTE ]There's regulations and then there's reality.
 

pkloop

New Member
I think up until the end if not all the way until landing the student should have the controls. The DE knows he can put the plane down and unless the student freaks out he should get to handle the emergency. Looks like the DE wasn't up on his soft field landings
Glad they're ok though. Now theres a checkride you won't forget!
 

Alchemy

Partner, Ally, Friend
I'm sorry, but in just about any emergency situation I'm handing the flight controls over to the most experienced pilot in the cockpit. As a CFI, I would expect a student to release the flight controls to me in an emergency situation. On a checkride, I would want the DE to be in control of the airplane. They have thousands and thousands of hours and are far more likely to handle the situation in a way that is survivable. The DE can, in fact, take the controls during the checkride without it constituting a bust. Take unusual attitudes during instrument checkrides for instance. I think the applicant in this scenario would recieve a notice of discontinuation.

Who gets the black mark on their record? I'd say the flight school or whoever does maintenance on their planes....from the mechanics point of view, a checkride has to be the worst possible time for an airplane to crap out.
 

pkloop

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, but in just about any emergency situation I'm handing the flight controls over to the most experienced pilot in the cockpit. As a CFI, I would expect a student to release the flight controls to me in an emergency situation. On a checkride, I would want the DE to be in control of the airplane.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point taken..but its "only"
an engine out. While its definatly an emergency its a more extreme emergency on lets say climb out or something. In that case most expierienced should take controls however I think in this situation the student should have it up until he can't handle it. Thats great real life expierience. The DE knows he can recover. Just my opinion though...
 

Alchemy

Partner, Ally, Friend
Maybe if it was *just* an engine out, I would let the student retain the controls if I was the DE. However, I would not hesitate to "coach" the student....time is precious when you lose the engine, and I would want to make sure the student does everything right the first time.

However, in this particular incident there was smoke in the cockpit. That lends a new degree of urgency to the situation, and I'd want my students to at least offer the DE the controls under those circumstances.
 

JD559

New Member
Cuttin the fuel. down to crackin the door on touch down . I'd definitely side slip the plane into a landing to try to keep the smoke from entering the cabin. but then again, who knows what exactly happened?
 

cime_sp

Well-Known Member
Let's pose it a different way....

Here you are a 45 year old father who has been driving for 30 years. You are teaching your 16 year-old son how to drive and preparing him for his drivers test.

Just then a car slightly in front of you on the highway in the left lane has a blowout and veers off to the right. All the other cars on the road take evasive action....

Now let me ask you....If you have your wife and daughter in the backseat with you, who would you want to be driving???
 

Alchemy

Partner, Ally, Friend
Cabin heat/cabin air vents off, maintain directional control and pitch for best glide, Mixture Idle Cut-off, fuel selector off, ignition off, find a suitable landing site as close to your current position as possible, pitch down at Vno until you're in position to begin the approach, approach the landing site on the upwind, flaps 40 on final, 55 KIAS, unlatch doors prior to touchdown, touchdown slightly tail low, flaps up and max braking after touchdown, master switch off, evacuate the aircraft.

That's what I'd do with smoke in the cockpit from memory.
 

pkloop

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
Let's pose it a different way....

Here you are a 45 year old father who has been driving for 30 years. You are teaching your 16 year-old son how to drive and preparing him for his drivers test.

Just then a car slightly in front of you on the highway in the left lane has a blowout and veers off to the right. All the other cars on the road take evasive action....

Now let me ask you....If you have your wife and daughter in the backseat with you, who would you want to be driving???

[/ QUOTE ]

apples and oranges...engine out doesn't mean crashing inside of 5-10 seconds
 

pkloop

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
Cabin heat/cabin air vents off, maintain directional control and pitch for best glide, Mixture Idle Cut-off, fuel selector off, ignition off, find a suitable landing site as close to your current position as possible, pitch down at Vno until you're in position to begin the approach, approach the landing site on the upwind, flaps 40 on final, 55 KIAS, unlatch doors prior to touchdown, touchdown slightly tail low, flaps up and max braking after touchdown, master switch off, evacuate the aircraft.

That's what I'd do with smoke in the cockpit from memory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Done! However If remember
Master/Avionics Master off prior to touchdown


200 useless posts and counting
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe if it was *just* an engine out, I would let the student retain the controls if I was the DE.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Just" an engine out? Screw that...engine goes kaput while I'm with a student (at any level), its my controls. As the CFI and PIC its my ass on the line, and I'm not willing to sacrafice said ass for the sake of my student getting to perform a real engine out/emerg. landing procedure. I'm all for learning experiences, but thats just not worth it. They can watch and learn.
 

av8rmsu

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Guess it depends on whats below..You wouldn't let a student land on a flat field?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not a CFI yet, but I would definately let the most experienced pilot take control of the plane. Just because a person can land....doesn't mean they can land in a field. Besides that, where are there totally flat fields (other than a sod farm)?

I think the DE did the right thing for sure. S/He probably has thousands of hours under their belt and most definately should take charge. In a real emergency like this, there are no room for mistakes.

"just" an engine out....

Are you kidding me, unless i am in a glider, if it gets real quiet at 4,000....you got a problem on your hands. I don't care what kind of plane it is. There is absolutely no room for errors.

Not too long ago, in Texas, an instructor and a student hit a bird and were killed after they botched the crash landing. They squawked 7700, made the radio calls, shut down the plane, and told ATC they needed somebody to come pick them up. The plane somehow nosed into the ground and rolled.

There is no such thing as a BIG emergency and a little emergency. If there is a problem, there is a problem.

Who cares who gets this put on their record. It was a true accident and nothing can be done. A gear up landing because of complacency is one thing, this is totally different.
 
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