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Skywest Soft Landings approved

RA390

Well-Known Member
#41
My gripe with this program is that SAPA and the company (same thing, I know) sold the lowball pay package as a requirement to stay competative and preached that there was no more money available to offer the pilots. Well, just a few short months later they decide that they've found more money to pay pilots a premium that aren't even on property yet as a recruitment tool. It's a bandaid to their stafffing issue and further reduces any pilot shortage leverage that the pilot group may have currently or in the future (keeping in mind the pay package was a 5 year deal). If the pilot group would have gotten the pay rates and annual percentage increases they deserve in the latest 5 year deal, I think Soft Landings would be a different animal. At the end of the day, the SAPA and Managment team will do whatever they please and the pilot group will continue to feel like it is their responsiblity to keep the airline properly staffed.
 

Cazadores

Well-Known Member
#42
Yeah, I don't see how this has anything to do with a union. How is this bad news for any Skywest pilot? Other airlines sure, its competition I see that.

Just like a flow agreement or a bonus any carrot can be taken away at any point. Never rely upon the carrot.

But say your airline is crumbling, or it is just a crummy place to work, wouldn't it be nice to start over at your same pay rate? Nobody wants to start at the bottom of seniority again, but most of us will switch airlines at least once or twice. This takes some of the bite out of it.

And if you are already at Skywest this just adds people onto the seniority list underneath you; always a good thing. Always.

Someone posted that they are upset about classes being full because "as long as classes are full we have no bargaining power" What?
Full classes are the only thing insulating you from hard times when the economy does tank (and its coming), not the other way around.
We don't have any bargaining power anyways, no airline does. Its called the RLA of 1926 and it basically says that the show must go on. Period.

100 percent of Spirit Airlines pilots voted yesterday to strike, and do you think that their operations will even feel a hiccup?

Call me a Koolaid drinker but I don't see any of the unionized shops with a better deal than OO currently has. Plus with a union what do you do? You file a grievance when the company doesn't do what they agreed to, and the company files that grievance in the trash. And now you have something to be angry and biter about but thats about it. And the union makes more money and you make less.
You clearly need to educate yourself on what ALPA does, what protections dues include, the enforceability of a labor contract negotiated through a CBA, and the use/abuse of the RLA.

You're absolutely correct soft landings has little to do with representation and it may be a positive thing as a whole, however a lot of pilots might be asking exactly how this benefits a line pilot, now, which is a primary responsibility of a representative in negotiations. Fact is everything offered of late benefits management above the line pilot, and is power sold to us by our representatives barely able to prevent pilots from being forced to work days off. It's no coincidence every correspondence from SAPA and management includes the tacit threatening language "We're having no trouble filling classes...." Our representatives telling us they are hamstrung to negotiate simple QOL improvements as we are not as hot a commodity as we think, while out of the other side of their mouth admit staffing is resulting in pilots being forced into flying on days off.

I like Skywest, and am very happy here so far, but frankly if our major partners were to absorb us tomorrow and the company ceased to exist it would be better for every one of our employees. I find no reason I should subsidize this company for it to remain competitive im bidding contracts to furrher the addiction mainline management has on cheap regional labor, and find any argument to do so sadly myopic. I generrally have found the people who are most pro company and anti union are experiencing their first and only airline industry exposure. There are real benefits to ALPA, and some real drawbacks. I'm not sure it is the answer to the relatively minor issues we have here and is likely a bad fit for Skywest, but dismissing representation based on some very shallow analysis or predisposition against organized labor is doing yourself a disservice. Get the whole story,

Remember under the RLA our mentors over decades of what is likely the most turbulent history in any industry managed to make this a profession worth tremendous sacrifice to pursue. The RLA believe it or not cuts both ways, and I'm confident Spirit pilots will get most if not all they ask for, without a strike.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 

word302

Well-Known Member
#44
Yeah, I don't see how this has anything to do with a union. How is this bad news for any Skywest pilot? Other airlines sure, its competition I see that.

Just like a flow agreement or a bonus any carrot can be taken away at any point. Never rely upon the carrot.

But say your airline is crumbling, or it is just a crummy place to work, wouldn't it be nice to start over at your same pay rate? Nobody wants to start at the bottom of seniority again, but most of us will switch airlines at least once or twice. This takes some of the bite out of it.

And if you are already at Skywest this just adds people onto the seniority list underneath you; always a good thing. Always.

Someone posted that they are upset about classes being full because "as long as classes are full we have no bargaining power" What?
Full classes are the only thing insulating you from hard times when the economy does tank (and its coming), not the other way around.
We don't have any bargaining power anyways, no airline does. Its called the RLA of 1926 and it basically says that the show must go on. Period.

100 percent of Spirit Airlines pilots voted yesterday to strike, and do you think that their operations will even feel a hiccup?

Call me a Koolaid drinker but I don't see any of the unionized shops with a better deal than OO currently has. Plus with a union what do you do? You file a grievance when the company doesn't do what they agreed to, and the company files that grievance in the trash. And now you have something to be angry and biter about but thats about it. And the union makes more money and you make less.
You should read republic's contract. Also, why do you think all the competition is handing out raises and huge bonuses? Hint: it's to get people in the door.
 
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#46
Call me a Koolaid drinker but I don't see any of the unionized shops with a better deal than OO currently has. Plus with a union what do you do? You file a grievance when the company doesn't do what they agreed to, and the company files that grievance in the trash.
You obviously haven't worked at a union shop.

You are the career version of "I'm young and healthy. I don't need health insurance!"
 

ppragman

Direct BOOKE
#47
My gripe with this program is that SAPA and the company (same thing, I know) sold the lowball pay package as a requirement to stay competative and preached that there was no more money available to offer the pilots. Well, just a few short months later they decide that they've found more money to pay pilots a premium that aren't even on property yet as a recruitment tool. It's a bandaid to their stafffing issue and further reduces any pilot shortage leverage that the pilot group may have currently or in the future (keeping in mind the pay package was a 5 year deal). If the pilot group would have gotten the pay rates and annual percentage increases they deserve in the latest 5 year deal, I think Soft Landings would be a different animal. At the end of the day, the SAPA and Managment team will do whatever they please and the pilot group will continue to feel like it is their responsiblity to keep the airline properly staffed.
This is exactly it. There's an accountant that exists at these companies - when the price of cancelling trips due to lack of staffing exceeds the cost of increasing pay, the company will start to pay more. It's that simple.

I am currently involved directly in some of these sorts of machinations - generally speaking, the human element is more or less removed from the decision making. That's where a Union that represents the best interests of the pilots is important. Without it, generally, these decisions will be strictly business decisions. Nothing more. Skywest is reportedly a good place to work - right now. It will not ALWAYS be that way, and it wasn't always that way - just a few years ago the pay was abysmal. The fact that SKYW doesn't have a union has allowed them to be slightly more nimble with regard to pilot pay right now, but this doesn't actually help anyone other than the shareholders and mainline.

In the long run, this is a tool that will draw pilots away from union carriers. In the long run, this will be detrimental to the industry unless the Union shops try to add this to the contracts the pilots operate under. Regardless, this doesn't make your pay and benefits transferable, it means that you can go to ONE and only one NON-UNION, company. You could basically do that now and go to the 135 world.

I dunno - this sort of thing outside of the bounds of contract is simply market forces with no regard for human quality of life. This could be fantastic, but I suspect it will not benefit people as much as they think.
 
#48
This is exactly it. There's an accountant that exists at these companies - when the price of cancelling trips due to lack of staffing exceeds the cost of increasing pay, the company will start to pay more. It's that simple.

I am currently involved directly in some of these sorts of machinations - generally speaking, the human element is more or less removed from the decision making. That's where a Union that represents the best interests of the pilots is important. Without it, generally, these decisions will be strictly business decisions. Nothing more. Skywest is reportedly a good place to work - right now. It will not ALWAYS be that way, and it wasn't always that way - just a few years ago the pay was abysmal. The fact that SKYW doesn't have a union has allowed them to be slightly more nimble with regard to pilot pay right now, but this doesn't actually help anyone other than the shareholders and mainline.

In the long run, this is a tool that will draw pilots away from union carriers. In the long run, this will be detrimental to the industry unless the Union shops try to add this to the contracts the pilots operate under. Regardless, this doesn't make your pay and benefits transferable, it means that you can go to ONE and only one NON-UNION, company. You could basically do that now and go to the 135 world.

I dunno - this sort of thing outside of the bounds of contract is simply market forces with no regard for human quality of life. This could be fantastic, but I suspect it will not benefit people as much as they think.
Two things.

One, I completely agree with you about the whole managing an airline via spreadsheet. Unfortunately what those kinds of decisions don't take into account is common sense and goodwill amongst your employees. I see this at my current airline and I saw it at my last one. A great example was when "ASA" bought Expressjet. One of the first things that happened was they saw that XJT had a pretty good stock of spare parts. Hey, those are worth money, so they sold them off. Reliability went into the toilet. One of two things happened...it was done on purpose or it was some idiot looking at a spreadsheet that went "hey, I have an idea!" Neither one of those is good.

Two, this definitely is a ploy to get people over to the one and only non union carrier. Hopefully, the end result is organization at Skywest due to the influx of other people. Really, the only people who benefit from this move are the people at Expressjet. Almost every other regional has similar pay, benefits, movement, etc.

For those who are drinking the koolaid. If you think you're really that much better off being non-union, why do you think your management is fighting so damn hard to keep one off property? You guys deal with the absolute same crap as everyone else, but for some reason you're the only group that seems to like it. Seems kind of like an abusive relationship.
 

Autothrust Blue

"How can you be so obtuse?"
#49
Our representatives telling us they are hamstrung to negotiate simple QOL improvements as we are not as hot a commodity as we think, while out of the other side of their mouth admit staffing is resulting in pilots being forced into flying on days off.
A lack of grown-up reroute language is problematic for everyone.

You obviously haven't worked at a union shop.

You are the career version of "I'm young and healthy. I don't need health insurance!"
I didn't care about health insurance until I needed it. (And so on)
 
#50
Call me a Koolaid drinker but I don't see any of the unionized shops with a better deal than OO currently has. Plus with a union what do you do? You file a grievance when the company doesn't do what they agreed to, and the company files that grievance in the trash. And now you have something to be angry and biter about but thats about it. And the union makes more money and you make less.
If you're only talking about the soft landing program then yes, for anyone else many other regionals are a much better deal. Also, at my shop the grievances I've been involved with or seen have resulted in almost immediate fixes and apologies by management. Not sure why you think they just go in the trash?
 

Rodger Wilco

Well-Known Member
#51
You obviously haven't worked at a union shop.

You are the career version of "I'm young and healthy. I don't need health insurance!"
Oh but I do need insurance!
Health Insurance or Medical Insurance? Skywest Offers both, the Health is ok the Medical is a joke.

You are ALPA? Let me ask you, (and this isn't me being snarky, this is a sincere question); What makes you think that you have better insurance?

Let me be clear to everyone, I'm not anti-union. But I am not pro union either. Show me a union with bite and not just bark. Heck I would be the first one to sign up for One List!
 

Nark

Well-Known Member
#52
The problem with unions, is that they are internally staffed.
They're only as good as the people in those positions.
So ALPA at PSA isn't the same ALPA at say... Eaglevoy.
(I think they're both ALPA).

Point still stands.
 
#54
Oh but I do need insurance!
Health Insurance or Medical Insurance? Skywest Offers both, the Health is ok the Medical is a joke.

You are ALPA? Let me ask you, (and this isn't me being snarky, this is a sincere question); What makes you think that you have better insurance?

Let me be clear to everyone, I'm not anti-union. But I am not pro union either. Show me a union with bite and not just bark. Heck I would be the first one to sign up for One List!
At my shop, scheduling tries to get you to do something non compliant, you can call/e-mail the scheduling committee and it's usually taken care of within the hour.
In fact every issue I've seen so far, they are on it as fast as seems possible and it's fixed. There is no such thing as fly it and grieve it later. It's set the brake and make them fix it.

As far as grievances going to the trash, there is a process set out for that in our cba(have you actually read a cba cover to cover?). The company could ignore it, but that just means it'd get sent to arbitration, where they'd likely loose immediately if they didn't attempt to resolve the issue. We actually win a staggering percentage of our grievances.
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
#56
Oh but I do need insurance!
Health Insurance or Medical Insurance? Skywest Offers both, the Health is ok the Medical is a joke.

You are ALPA? Let me ask you, (and this isn't me being snarky, this is a sincere question); What makes you think that you have better insurance?
What's the difference between "health" and "medical"?

Also, as you said, Skywest "offers" both, but there is no guarantee (other than the ACA right now) that they will continue to do that or what the coverage will consist off. Ask some of the Mesa guys about language that says "the Company shall provide a medical plan for to the pilot group" and what that actually got them. And you guys don't even have that much.

Better insurance is negotiated. Better insurance is ensured.
 

pdxcfi

Flyin' Shoe
#58
I'd say pissed was an understatement. Suing the company in federal court, then getting bonuses written into a LOA the pilots voted on with a pay increase and other goodies. Yep, pissed is a good start. The second lawsuit is already playing out...maybe they can get a hat-trick in before the years over.


Seriously. Wasn't Horizon's union absolutely pissed about them offering the bonuses that they were because it was without negotiating and was violating their CBA?
 

Autothrust Blue

"How can you be so obtuse?"
#59
What's the difference between "health" and "medical"?

Also, as you said, Skywest "offers" both, but there is no guarantee (other than the ACA right now) that they will continue to do that or what the coverage will consist off. Ask some of the Mesa guys about language that says "the Company shall provide a medical plan for to the pilot group" and what that actually got them. And you guys don't even have that much.

Better insurance is negotiated. Better insurance is ensured.
TBQH, I think they'd have more than a mutiny on their hands from more than the pilots, as benefits are Company-common with the exception of 401(k) and LOM.
 

B767

Well-Known Member
#60
TBQH, I think they'd have more than a mutiny on their hands from more than the pilots, as benefits are Company-common with the exception of 401(k) and LOM.
I get what he's saying. And I get what you're saying. Having been here, and seen, what happened and how we reacted when they reduced the number of water bottles, recommended bringing your own and filling it up on turns, and "not allowing" crew to use the liter bottles...

Yea, more than a mutiny is about the right phrase. Things got crazy over bottles of water. Would hate to see what happens if they took away medical.