Simulated Cross Country?

Skinnah

Well-Known Member
I'm currently taking a 141 approved instrument simulation class in a Frasca simulator. We can log 20 hours towards our instrument rating but can we log any x-country time we do in the sim as part of the 50 hours of x-c PIC needed?
Thanks.
 

RiddlePilot

New Member
Doesn't say...only that you can log 50% of your instrument time in a sim. I do know that there are Instrument XC requirements (>250nm, 3 different approaches, etc.), but somehow I doubt that you can log sim time as XC PIC under Part 141.
 

Jeff_S_KDTW

New Member
Unfortunately, no.

As John Lynch stated in Q&A-98[ QUOTE ]
The time logged in a flight simulator or flight training device cannot be credited toward meeting the cross-country aeronautical experience. § 61.1(b)(3) states in part, “time acquired during a FLIGHT. . .” and “. . . Conducted in an appropriate AIRCRAFT” Consequently, the time logged in a flight simulator or flight training device cannot be credited toward meeting the cross-country aeronautical experience.

[/ QUOTE ][ QUOTE ]
QUESTION: Don't have a specific example, but can you give me the low down on how flight simulator and flight training device time can be logged (flight time, pic, sic, night, x-c, etc.) in a persons log book.

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.51(b)(1)(iv), (b)(3)(iii), (g)(4), and (h)(1) and § 61.51(a)(1) and (2); Keep in mind that logging time is only required for the purposes stated in § 61.51(a)(1) and (2), i.e., experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review and meeting the recent flight experience requirements.

I also direct you to the definition of “flight training” as per § 61.1(b)(6) which states: “Flight training means that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.” (Emphasis added: “in flight in an aircraft”). Furthermore, § 61.51(h)(1) addresses logging of training time as “A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.”

However, time in a flight simulator or flight training device cannot be logged as “flight time” or as “PIC flight time” or as “SIC time” or as “night time” or as “daytime” or as “cross-country time” or as time in an “aircraft category, class, or type.” Time in a flight simulator or flight training device can only be logged in the columns noted as “Flight Simulator or Flight Training Device” time and “Dual Received” time. And in most logbooks, the person has to write in the notation “FS/FTD” as a heading on one of the extra columns. And in some logbooks they do have a column noted as “Synthetic Trainer.”

The FARs specifically permit time in a flight simulator or flight training device can be credited in lieu of the required flight time towards meeting the total aeronautical experience or recency of experience. [See § 61.57(c)(1) and (d)(1)(ii), § 61.58(e), § 61.65(e), § 61.109(i), § 61.129(i), § 61.157(i), § 61.187(c)(2), etc.] However, this is not flight time and cannot be logged as flight time. For example, an ATP applicant with 1,475 hours total time as a pilot in aircraft that includes at least 500 hours cross-country and 100 hours night, but only 50 hours instrument flight time would meet minimum aeronautical experience using 25 hours instrument training in a flight simulator or flight training device (FTD) in accordance with § 61.156(a)(3)(iii). Though the 25 hours in the sim/FTD can not logged as flight time, it may be used in lieu of flight time for the minimum aeronautical experience requirement of 1,500 hours total time. But, this is only because it is allowed under § 61.156(a)(3)(iii).

Now, the way it would be interpreted and should be logged on the FAA Form 8710-1 application is to list the time in the “Instruction Received” and “Instrument” columns and in the line for “Training Device” or “Simulator” in the appropriate boxes. When the time is computed to insure the applicant meets the appropriate aeronautical experience requirements for the airman certificate and rating sought, the time listed in the “Instruction Received” column and “Training Device” or “Simulator” boxes, as appropriate, would be accepted in lieu of the required flight time experience required to the limit allowed, as in the example above.
{Q&A-320}

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Jeff_S_KDTW

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
I'm currently taking a 141 approved instrument simulation class in a Frasca simulator. We can log 20 hours towards our instrument rating but can we log any x-country time we do in the sim as part of the 50 hours of x-c PIC needed?

[/ QUOTE ]As I answered above, sim time does not count as XC time, PIC time, etc.

However, just as I hit the post button, I thought "why do you ~need~ 50 hours PIC XC if you are doing your instrument rating under Part 141?" The 50 hours PIC XC requirement, set forth in Part 61, is waived under Part 141.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
I've seen a number of iterations in people's logbooks of what they include in Frasca sim time. Real moronic stuff such as adding 0.1 to the sim time for taxi time accomplished in the sim, to counting landings accomplished in the sim and even further breaking those down into day/night sim landings.

Nitwits.
 

Skinnah

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
However, just as I hit the post button, I thought "why do you ~need~ 50 hours PIC XC if you are doing your instrument rating under Part 141?" The 50 hours PIC XC requirement, set forth in Part 61, is waived under Part 141.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your answers.. My flight sim class is through a college which is 141 approved but my actual flight school is part 61..
 

DE727UPS

Well-Known Member
Just wondering what you are paying for dual sim time and dual for IFR in the aircraft?

Something most guys don't know is that your Frasca ground trainer instruction time is loggable under part 61 for 50 hours of the 250 hours total required for the commercial license. So you could do another 30, in addition to the 20 for the IFR, and still have it count towards your commercial.
 

Acadia

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Just wondering what you are paying for dual sim time and dual for IFR in the aircraft?

Something most guys don't know is that your Frasca ground trainer instruction time is loggable under part 61 for 50 hours of the 250 hours total required for the commercial license. So you could do another 30, in addition to the 20 for the IFR, and still have it count towards your commercial.

[/ QUOTE ]

So does that 50hrs count towards total time?
 

Skinnah

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Just wondering what you are paying for dual sim time and dual for IFR in the aircraft?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dual Sim Time:
-Since its a college course I'm paying $350.00 for the semester and I will log about 30 hours total since we are flying solo in the sim. Breaks down to a little under $12/hour.

Dual IFR in Aircraft:
-I'm paying $130.00/hour for the aircraft(wet) & instructor. Plus its a 2002 172S with moving map GPS and aTCAS system.
 

Jeff_S_KDTW

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just wondering what you are paying for dual sim time and dual for IFR in the aircraft?

Something most guys don't know is that your Frasca ground trainer instruction time is loggable under part 61 for 50 hours of the 250 hours total required for the commercial license. So you could do another 30, in addition to the 20 for the IFR, and still have it count towards your commercial.

[/ QUOTE ]

So does that 50hrs count towards total time?

[/ QUOTE ]No, because it is not "flight time". So, it still gets logged at Simulator Time. However, it can be used "in lieu of" the flight time requirement.

Here is a quote from the AFS-640 FAQ site[ QUOTE ]
The FARs specifically permit time in a flight simulator or flight training device can be credited in lieu of the required flight time towards meeting the total aeronautical experience or recency of experience. [See § 61.57(c)(1) and (d)(1)(ii), § 61.58(e), § 61.65(e), § 61.109(i), § 61.129(i), § 61.157(i), § 61.187(c)(2), etc.] However, this is not flight time and cannot be logged as flight time. For example, an ATP applicant with 1,475 hours total time as a pilot in aircraft that includes at least 500 hours cross-country and 100 hours night, but only 50 hours instrument flight time would meet minimum aeronautical experience using 25 hours instrument training in a flight simulator or flight training device (FTD) in accordance with § 61.156(a)(3)(iii). Though the 25 hours in the sim/FTD can not logged as flight time, it may be used in lieu of flight time for the minimum aeronautical experience requirement of 1,500 hours total time. But, this is only because it is allowed under § 61.156(a)(3)(iii).

[/ QUOTE ]
 

DE727UPS

Well-Known Member
Solo time in a Frasca ground trainer is not loggable. It has to be instruction time with a CFII or an Instrument Ground Instructor for you to legally log it.
 

Skinnah

Well-Known Member
Yes, it is instructed by a Instrument Ground Instructor / CFII. I just meant that we are flying alone in the sim rather than with a co-pilot..
 
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