SIC Time in a Citation Bravo, need help here

Planedriver28

Well-Known Member
Folks, I am SORRY in advance that you have to view another 'time' question. Here are the facts as I interpret them:
1. Citation Bravo 550 is a 2 pilot airplane.
2. Even if the Pilot has a singe-pilot waiver, he CAN STILL choose to crew if he wants. (refer to #1)
3. Pilot is CFII, MEII, ATP.
4. SIC Candidate is CFII, CMEL, ATP
5. an SIC TYPE is NOT required for [part 91 domestic ops.

Now, if I was flying SIC on this airplane... I WOULD receive the required training per 61.55 and get the LEGIT SIC TYPE paperwork from the FSDO. The pilot would issue a recommendation via endorsement in my logbook for high altitude ops, and SIC training per 61.55, and by signing the 8710 APP. Here is where I cannot find:

Situation # 1: The SIC type CANIDATATE is receiving training FOR the SIC TYPE per 61.55.
Situation # 2: The SIC HAS been ISSUED the TEMPORARY SIC type by the fsdo.

Can the SIC log PIC time when 'sole manipulator of the controls" in either or both of these situations? I hate reading hypothetical posts, but this one is particularly interesting...

Thoughts?
 

rframe

pǝʇɹǝʌuı
Yes, "sole manipulator of the controls", you are not ACTING as PIC.
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
Is holding an SIC type considered being "rated" in this context?
 

cmill

Cold Ass Honky
AFAIK you need to be "PIC rated" (I know thats not a real term,) in order to log PIC time. If you dont hold the appropriate type, you cant log PIC time. Remember a "SIC type" is a recent thing, there used to be no such animal. It was just sign off in a log book, all it is is a formality for international ops.
 

Autothrust Blue

"Duuuuuude."
The answer to your question is no. It's rather clearly printed on your ticket: "[some type] SIC PRIVILEGES ONLY".

AFAIK you need to be "PIC rated" (I know thats not a real term,) in order to log PIC time. If you dont hold the appropriate type, you cant log PIC time. Remember a "SIC type" is a recent thing, there used to be no such animal. It was just sign off in a log book, all it is is a formality for international ops.
Well, sort of...

It's true you can get one with three bounces and a sticky label, but most approved programs are far more substantial than that. It's unfortunate that a merit badge is all that is required by the FAA, but most operators go farther. At MQ, the only difference in the EMB-145 program was we didn't do a no-flap landing and one or two other things.

Now, the SIC type will probably largely be extinct in airline ops.
 

Nick2024

Well-Known Member
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
Is holding an SIC type considered being "rated" in this context?
I failed to remember the "which the pilot is rated " quote.
 

cmill

Cold Ass Honky
The answer to your question is no. It's rather clearly printed on your ticket: "[some type] SIC PRIVILEGES ONLY".


Well, sort of...

It's true you can get one with three bounces and a sticky label, but most approved programs are far more substantial than that. It's unfortunate that a merit badge is all that is required by the FAA, but most operators go farther. At MQ, the only difference in the EMB-145 program was we didn't do a no-flap landing and one or two other things.

Now, the SIC type will probably largely be extinct in airline ops.
Well, I cant speak for airlines, but I think the reason its so lax in the pt 91 world is that the insurance companies are going to basically self regulate. Having said that, the biggest plane insurance has approved me to act as SIC in is a falcon 20, and that was with no school. I dont even really think that was smart, but they really have more interest in it than the FAA does.
 

dustoff17

Well-Known Member
AND we're forgetting that the PIC is waivered for single pilot. This alone kills you in Part 91 flights.
 

dasleben

That's just, like, your opinion, man
At MQ, the only difference in the EMB-145 program was we didn't do a no-flap landing and one or two other things.
To add, you can't retrain to proficiency if performance is unsatisfactory. On a full type ride, a failed maneuver is a pink slip. Also, I can't speak for anyone else's operators, but at my company, command authority was a big part of what they looked for when evaluating progress through the program, even for FOs. Definitely much more comprehensive than a couple extra maneuvers.

To answer the question, no, I would not log sole manipulator PIC unless you hold a full type (though, that's frowned upon in the 121 world).
 

Maurus

The Great Gazoo
1. Citation Bravo 550 is a 2 pilot airplane.
2. Even if the Pilot has a singe-pilot waiver, he CAN STILL choose to crew if he wants. (refer to #1)
Once the PIC has the single pilot waver the plane becomes single pilot. The logging of SIC can't even be done as no SIC is required part 91. I can dig up the LOA if you want when I get home.

Don't let this stop you from logging the time in a separate log book for insurance reasons.
 

Autothrust Blue

"Duuuuuude."
To add, you can't retrain to proficiency if performance is unsatisfactory. On a full type ride, a failed maneuver is a pink slip. Also, I can't speak for anyone else's operators, but at my company, command authority was a big part of what they looked for when evaluating progress through the program, even for FOs. Definitely much more comprehensive than a couple extra maneuvers.

To answer the question, no, I would not log sole manipulator PIC unless you hold a full type (though, that's frowned upon in the 121 world).
Yes, that too. As some Flight Ops muckety-muck said at my first employer, we didn't hire FOs, we hired Captains in training.

:rolleyes:

Incidentally, if I were an airline recruiter, I'd write the requirements as "Turbine Captain" time to dispel any further confusion about what, exactly, I might be using to separate the wheat from the chaff.
 

Corporate Pilot

Well-Known Member
Once the PIC has the single pilot waver the plane becomes single pilot. The logging of SIC can't even be done as no SIC is required part 91. I can dig up the LOA if you want when I get home.

Don't let this stop you from logging the time in a separate log book for insurance reasons.
If the PIC does not carry the waver with them the airplane is a two pilot airplane.
 

jhugz

#lighttwin Mafia
If you have to think about it for more then a couple seconds to justify it, you probably shouldn't log it ,
 

dasleben

That's just, like, your opinion, man
Yes, that too. As some Flight Ops muckety-muck said at my first employer, we didn't hire FOs, we hired Captains in training.

:rolleyes:

Incidentally, if I were an airline recruiter, I'd write the requirements as "Turbine Captain" time to dispel any further confusion about what, exactly, I might be using to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Hey, say what you want, but when you're left seat over the ocean and the cabin depresses on you, it doesn't matter how many stripes you're wearing. :) Every FO at every company should approach their job knowing that they're an independent, competent crewmember, not just the guy in the right seat throwing gear.
 

DPApilot

GUYSH! GUYSH! GUYSH!
No, otherwise every SIC rated FO would be logging PIC time when it's their leg. If I could I would! I only have a SIC type, so alas, I cannot.
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
You can log what you want.

However when it comes to satisfying Airman Experience or using that time to establish your gravitas during an interview, well...

I have a PIC type in the 767. When the captain is on break, being the senior FO, I'm kind of in command of the aircraft. However, the snoozing captain is the captain of record and still has command of the aircraft.

But he's asleep and not at his duty station.

I could put that in my logbook all day if I wanted. However I wouldn't consider that PIC in the eyes of the FAA and I sure in hell wouldn't apply to another airline claiming that I had captain experience in the 757/767.


Sent from my TRS-80
 
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