SIC-Logging In A Cessna Citation???

mtsu_av8er

Well-Known Member
OK, here's the question. A person owns a Citation that is certified for single-pilot operation. The PIC is typed and approved for single-pilot operations.

If he chooses to operate with 2 crew members, is it legal for the SIC to log SIC time, since the PIC is not REQUIRED to have an SIC????
 

rausda27

Well-Known Member
No...I had this happen to me with a Citation ISP...as did another user on here..basically you have a couple of options...

If he is an ATP he can give you dual instruction in the aircraft so you can log it as dual recieved, but not as SIC, basically as an ATP, once you are PIC rated in the plane, you could give instruction in the aircraft to newly hired company pilots as per FAR Part 61.167.


If he is a CFI, MEI he can also do the same thing, but again you can only log it as dual received.

If for some "reason" the autopilot is inoperative then the aircraft will require an SIC...that is the only way a single pilot certified aircraft like a Citation will allow two crew members...

But don't let this deter you, you will learn alot and it will be a great experience...
 

DE727UPS

Well-Known Member
How about if the PIC is under the hood and you needed a safety pilot? Does "see and be seen", and the need for a safety pilot for eyes outside the cockpit, apply in class A airspace?
 

Jeff_S_KDTW

New Member
Re: SIC-Logging In A Cessna Citation??? *DELETED*

Is an ATP bound to any particular curriculm as set forth in 61.3(d)(3)?
For reference:
[ QUOTE ]
(3) A flight instructor certificate issued under this part is not necessary --

...

(ii) Under paragraph (d)(2) of this section, if the training is given by the holder of an airline transport pilot certificate with a rating appropriate to the aircraft in which the training is given, provided the training is given in accordance with the privileges of the certificate and conducted in accordance with an approved air carrier training program approved under part 121 or part 135 of this chapter;

[/ QUOTE ]
 

sopdan

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...If he is an ATP he can give you dual instruction in the aircraft so you can log it as dual recieved....

[/ QUOTE ]What makes an ATP legal to give flight instruction? She must be a current CFI or CFII, as I understand it (i.e. only instructors can give instruction).

*I understand that many ATPs came up through the instructor ranks, but not all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look up the aforementioned 61.167(b)(1)....

"An airline transport pilot may instruct---"......
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...If he is an ATP he can give you dual instruction in the aircraft so you can log it as dual recieved....

[/ QUOTE ]What makes an ATP legal to give flight instruction? She must be a current CFI or CFII, as I understand it (i.e. only instructors can give instruction).

*I understand that many ATPs came up through the instructor ranks, but not all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spelled out In the "privileges" section of 14 CFR 61.167 for ATPs.

may instruct and endorse logbooks for aircraft in which the ATP is rated in aircraft of appropriate category/class/type (paraphrased)
 

CK

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]


Spelled out In the "privileges" section of 14 CFR 61.167 for ATPs.

may instruct and endorse logbooks for aircraft in which the ATP is rated in aircraft of appropriate category/class/type (paraphrased)

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a question about that, I heard they could only instruct in aircraft they hold a type rating in, is that true?
 

rausda27

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]

I have a question about that, I heard they could only instruct in aircraft they hold a type rating in, is that true?

[/ QUOTE ]

In the case of any turbojet or aircraft over 125000 lbs they would have ot have a type rating regardless to act as PIC...
 

CK

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I have a question about that, I heard they could only instruct in aircraft they hold a type rating in, is that true?

[/ QUOTE ]

In the case of any turbojet or aircraft over 125000 lbs they would have ot have a type rating regardless to act as PIC...

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't asking about the Citation, I was asking in genral. I heard the ATP could only instruct in aircraft he/she holds a type rating in, so they couldn't sign off or teach a pilot in a 172, is that true? I guess you mean 12,500
 

mtsu_av8er

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]

I wasn't asking about the Citation, I was asking in genral. I heard the ATP could only instruct in aircraft he/she holds a type rating in, so they couldn't sign off or teach a pilot in a 172, is that true? I guess you mean 12,500


[/ QUOTE ]

According to Part 61.167 (b) (1), an ATP may instruct other pilots . . .in air transportation service in aircraft of the category, class, and type, as applicable, for which the airline transport pilot is rater . . .".

So, apparently, (s)he can train you in any plane for which he or she is rated (notice it says "type, if applicable". So, theoretically, an ATP could train you in a Skyhawk.

Here's the catch....has to be in "air transportation services". So, not any old ATP (without a CFI ticket) can show up at an FBO and conduct flight training, BUT he can train you to fly a jet (if (s)he is appropriately rated).

You'll next notice 61.167 (b) (3), which states that an ATP may only instruct ". . .as provided in this section, unless the airline transport pilot also holds a flight instructor certificate, in which case the holder may exercise the privileges of subpart H of part 61 [Flight Instructor Privileges] for which he or she is rated . . .".

Soooo, in conclusion, no lazy 8's in a Skyhawk!!!
 

mtsu_av8er

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
How about if I fly in an MU2 with an ATP, is that loggable?

[/ QUOTE ]

So confused.....

No.

Is (s)he training you to fly that aircraft in air transportation services, within the regulations of part 61.167? If not, then (s)he can't really instruct you.
 

xdashdriver

Well-Known Member
Look in the limitations section of the AFM/POH for the aircraft concerned, under Minimum Flight Crew. For the Citation IISP that I have flown it says "One pilot in the left seat or Two pilots." Although your guys may interpret it differently, my local FSDO says that provided I am qualified in I/A/W 61.55 then I can log the time as SIC because the book gives the option for one or two pilots. It also goes on to state what equipment must be installed and operational in order for the plane to be operated by a single pilot, but no where does it restrict the option of having two pilots. So because the AFM/POH says OR Two Pilots, one could quite successfully argue that the aircraft requires two pilots.

As for ATPs giving instruction, note the phrase "air transportation service" in there. Unless it is rather easy for you to prove that you are in a definite training program to be a company pilot, I wouldn't log it as dual received unless that ATP also holds a CFI with appropriate ratings. Strangely enough, I have not found much guidance on how strictly this reg is interpreted.

As for the safety pilot question (in an aircraft that requires a type rating)....if you have at least a private with category and class you may act as safety pilot, however you cannot log it as PIC unless you have type rating. You would have to log it SIC.

Ray
 

rausda27

Well-Known Member
The ISP and IISP must be different in the crew member wording...to the original poster..which Citation are you asking about?
 

xdashdriver

Well-Known Member
In all honesty, the aircraft I'm talking about was manufactured as a II (550) and the owner did the paperwork to convert it to a IISP (551) although I highly doubt that makes any difference.

The only Citation I I have flown is a 500, flown single pilot through the exemption, so there's no doubt that the option to fly 2 pilot is there since the AFM/POH says 2 pilots are required and that's all it says.

Ray
 

mtsu_av8er

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
to the original poster..which Citation are you asking about?

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be a CE-500.
 

mastermags

Well-Known Member *giggity*
[ QUOTE ]

I wasn't asking about the Citation, I was asking in genral. I heard the ATP could only instruct in aircraft he/she holds a type rating in, so they couldn't sign off or teach a pilot in a 172, is that true? I guess you mean 12,500


[/ QUOTE ]

That is correct... my granddad was an ATP and used to instruct airline pilots at eastern on a few different jets... but he cant give me my tailwheel endorsement in the cub, so I have to wait for my CFI to come sign me off.
 

xdashdriver

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
to the original poster..which Citation are you asking about?

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be a CE-500.

[/ QUOTE ]

In that case, there would be no doubt that logging it SIC is permissible, so long as you're qualified per 61.55

Ray
 
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