Republic 4439 ATL

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
What are y'all trained to do as far as the timing of the "SOBs and Fuel onboard" questions?
I thought ATC did a fine job. As soon as the emergency was declared, ATC prefaced the above questions properly with "when you can" or "when able", and once the nature of the emergency was established, simply queried the crew as to what they required, giving them the option to stay in the pattern to immediately land, or to proceed somewhere to sort things out. All while still controlling and sorting his other traffic he was working and getting them out of the way.

Good on the crew for the quick, assertive and timely emergency declaration, with no wasted time or beating around the bush.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
For pilots, just remember when ATC queries you for souls onboard and fuel, the former is for CFR, the latter is for ATC. The fuel query question isn't fuel in pounds or gallons, its fuel in terms of time........minutes specifically. As per the AIM and the 7110.65. Too many pilots believe this question has to do with gallons/pounds onboard (as a result of incorrect training), and they answer accordingly just as this crew did, with the wrong info when it comes to that detail.
 

Brian29

Well-Known Member
For pilots, just remember when ATC queries you for souls onboard and fuel, the former is for CFR, the latter is for ATC. The fuel query question isn't fuel in pounds or gallons, its fuel in terms of time........minutes specifically. As per the AIM and the 7110.65. Too many pilots believe this question has to do with gallons/pounds onboard (as a result of incorrect training), and they answer accordingly just as this crew did, with the wrong info when it comes to that detail.
Never understood reporting it in “minutes“ of fuel, if I have 6000lbs onboard that could be 4hrs of fuel at 47,000 or 2hrs at 7000ft. What’s the logic there? I guess they are both variables that are always changing but I guess lbs always made more sense to me.
 

Roger Roger

Paid to sleep, fly for fun
Never understood reporting it in “minutes“ of fuel, if I have 6000lbs onboard that could be 4hrs of fuel at 47,000 or 2hrs at 7000ft. What’s the logic there? I guess they are both variables that are always changing but I guess lbs always made more sense to me.
If fuel in lbs is that ambiguous to you it’s even more useless to ATC. It seems fairly straightforward to give them your most applicable estimate, if and when able.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
Never understood reporting it in “minutes“ of fuel, if I have 6000lbs onboard that could be 4hrs of fuel at 47,000 or 2hrs at 7000ft. What’s the logic there? I guess they are both variables that are always changing but I guess lbs always made more sense to me.
Its ballpark, based on where you are. I'm sure hours would suffice. Nothing that has to be exact to the second, but ballpark figure works for where you are going to be. If its after takeoff like this, then a low altitude figure would be appropriate. If you are orbiting/holding or cruising at altitude, then a higher altitude figure would be appropriate.

BL is, a gallons/pounds answer doesn't mean much to ATC or to CFR forces. ATC only needs a very general time figure.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
Nah I’m an idiot and wasn’t thinking that through correctly. Disregard.
You're not an idiot at all. Its a common misconception with pilots and thats only because its trained incorrectly. Even the crew here did it, and they were very competently handling their emergency.
 

BigZ

Well-Known Member
Is it too early to joke?

Common! A plane leaving Atlanta with more than 2 open seats? That thing only had 6 souls on board? Impossible, unless they were flying for united.
Might have been a full boat going to a ginger convention though.


On the serious note - reason this felt more personal than normal - I'm in training for the 175 currently and about 9 hrs prior to the event I was getting signed off for my SV/PV. LCA (good guy, been here a while and knows the plane) goes "So, pitch trim runaway, what do you do?" "AP/TRIM Disconnect press and hold" "OK, then what?" "QRH" "No time for that!" "System 1 cut out, system 2 cut out. Turn 1 back on, if it works - good, if not turn it off, turn 2 on" "Exactly".
Going to bed that evening after listening to the ATC recording felt a little eerie.
On the switches the priority is backup then CA then FO then auto flight.

Rant - I find the lack of details in modern AOMs very upsetting. Wanted to see the WOW switch logic required for the TR deployment - the book says "when the aircraft os on the ground". Gee, thanks.
 

jynxyjoe

The Kickin' Chicken!
Might have been a full boat going to a ginger convention though.


On the serious note - reason this felt more personal than normal - I'm in training for the 175 currently and about 9 hrs prior to the event I was getting signed off for my SV/PV. LCA (good guy, been here a while and knows the plane) goes "So, pitch trim runaway, what do you do?" "AP/TRIM Disconnect press and hold" "OK, then what?" "QRH" "No time for that!" "System 1 cut out, system 2 cut out. Turn 1 back on, if it works - good, if not turn it off, turn 2 on" "Exactly".
Going to bed that evening after listening to the ATC recording felt a little eerie.
On the switches the priority is backup then CA then FO then auto flight.

Rant - I find the lack of details in modern AOMs very upsetting. Wanted to see the WOW switch logic required for the TR deployment - the book says "when the aircraft os on the ground". Gee, thanks.
Even if there was more info later you find out the people writing the books don't ask engineering and some of the info is wrong. Right in the mx book more often for sure, but the relationship between pilot and manufacturing company has more and more turned into shut up and fly. Pilots worry about stupid things and remember minutia wrong in key moments.
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
Yup. The systems diagrams in your manual are heavily simplified “logic flowcharts”.

Especially on more modern aircraft.

”Well, we lost an (whatever) unit!”

”Technically, it’s a subroutine....”
 

Soul Brotha'

Well-Known Member
"So, pitch trim runaway, what do you do?" "AP/TRIM Disconnect press and hold" "OK, then what?" "QRH" "No time for that!" "System 1 cut out, system 2 cut out. Turn 1 back on, if it works - good, if not turn it off, turn 2 on" "Exactly".
Just curious, is that a memory item for you guys? The SYS 1&2 cut out button.
 
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