Questions about CFI training ...

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
Just a couple quick ones:

1) Any books I should pick up to start this crazy process?

2) About how long will my initial CFI take (I'm going to work on MEI/MEI-I at the same time)?

3) Any required hours with an instructor (I skimmed part 61 and couldn't find any requirements ... but I probably missed 'em)?

Thats about it ...
 

mtsu_av8er

Well-Known Member
There is NO minimum flight time requirement for the CFI. None. Zip. Alot of people will try to tell you that it takes 15 hours....it takes 25 hours...I know more than one person that has done it in less than 5. It's more bookwork than anything (unless you go to a school that likes to milk you...there are plenty of those...).

As far as books, pick up :
1. Aviation Instructor's Handbook
2. Aviation Weather Services
3. FAR/AIM (Stay away from JEPP...it just doesn't cover enough...try the ASA, or my fav, the McGraw-Hill Aviation Week edition...

Really, almost everything you need to know is in the Jepp Private pilot manual, and the Inst/Comm manual. It's just taking that, and learning how to teach it (easier said than done, if you've never taught before...).
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
Just about every job I've ever held I end up in some kind of trainer position, plus I've taught martial arts for many years now. I'm hoping that will help/transfer over to the CFI stuff.

Thanks for the heads up MTSU!

BTW We use freelance instructors so if we get milked it's our own fault!
 

Mr_Creepy

Well-Known Member
Actually there is a minimum flying requirement. Prior to any practical test you must have logged 3 hrs of dual instruction for that practical test in the last 60 days. I don't have 14 CFR in front of me right now but it's somewhere in 61.

But avoid those costly schools and special CFI deals. The FAA here in Orlando tells me that the failure rate is nearly identical from those schools as from private instructors.
 

mastermags

Well-Known Member *giggity*
[ QUOTE ]
Actually there is a minimum flying requirement. Prior to any practical test you must have logged 3 hrs of dual instruction for that practical test in the last 60 days. I don't have 14 CFR in front of me right now but it's somewhere in 61.

But avoid those costly schools and special CFI deals. The FAA here in Orlando tells me that the failure rate is nearly identical from those schools as from private instructors.


[/ QUOTE ]


What exactly flight wise is different from the commercial, save spins and flying from the right seat?
 

mtsu_av8er

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Actually there is a minimum flying requirement. Prior to any practical test you must have logged 3 hrs of dual instruction for that practical test in the last 60 days. I don't have 14 CFR in front of me right now but it's somewhere in 61.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, there is NO aeronautical experience requirement for the flight instructor certificate. I repeat...none. Zero. Zip.

If you read Part 61.109 (a)(4), it deals with the Private certificate, and the aeronautical experience requirement. this is where you will find the required 3 hours of training in the last 60 days...blah, blah. You will find the same blurb in the section that deals with the Instrument as well as the commercial.

NOW....if you read part 61.181 through 61.187 (the section that deals with the flight instructor requirements), you'll not find a single piece about aeronautical experience. There is NO requirement for 3 hours during the 60 days prior to the practical test. In 61.187 (Flight proficiency) you will find that you must recieve an endorsement from an authorized instructor on "...the areas of operation...." certifying that you are proficient to pass a practical test. But, again, there are no specific requirements for specific amounts of flight time.

This will possibly be the most difficult thing to explain to a flight instructor that should, in reality, be very comfortable with the regulations. However, you will still find the "I had to bust my butt [read:waste time and money] with my CFI, so I have to do the same thing to you..." mentality, but there is no need for that. If you can perform to the PTS standards, you're ready for the checkride. If not, it may take you the 15 or 20 hours. But it's the private and commercial checkride, from the right seat.....nothing more.

Just for your own info, alot of people seem to think that you have to do your CFI before you do your CFI-I. WRONG!!!!! If you want to make the path a little bit easier, you can take your CFI-I first (with the FSDO), and then do your CFI-A with a DE. That way, there are less areas for the FSDO to fail you on (I'm not saying that to say you should cheat....but I think that it is safe to say that a FSDO checkride can be a little too thorough, and that many FSDO examiners are....ummm......overly enthusiastic). No landings (as long as you're safe), no ground reference, etc. Something to think about.....

If anybody knows a regulation that I'm missing, please point it out - I'd like to know it.
 

Visceral

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Actually there is a minimum flying requirement. Prior to any practical test you must have logged 3 hrs of dual instruction for that practical test in the last 60 days. I don't have 14 CFR in front of me right now but it's somewhere in 61.

[/ QUOTE ]

That isn't entirely correct. CFR 61.39 lists the prereqs for practical tests. It only says "has received and logged training time within 60 days preceding the date of application..." You'll have to look at the "aeronautical experience" section to see more detailed requirements. Private pilots and recreational pilots have that 3 hour in preparation requirement, but CFIs under part 61 just need 15 hours as PIC in the cat and class appropriate to the instructor rating sought.

Looks like MTSU beat me to it.
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Just for your own info, alot of people seem to think that you have to do your CFI before you do your CFI-I. WRONG!!!!! If you want to make the path a little bit easier, you can take your CFI-I first (with the FSDO), and then do your CFI-A with a DE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I would think that doing your CFII initial with the FSDO would be worse. Instrument stuff is more technical, and more to remember. Thats just my guess. I did both my CFI/CFII under a 141 program (that apparently is too costly, too lengthy, and not worth it, although I thought it was superb), so I really don't know. Just my worthless opinion...
 

mtsu_av8er

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just for your own info, alot of people seem to think that you have to do your CFI before you do your CFI-I. WRONG!!!!! If you want to make the path a little bit easier, you can take your CFI-I first (with the FSDO), and then do your CFI-A with a DE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I would think that doing your CFII initial with the FSDO would be worse. Instrument stuff is more technical, and more to remember.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is true....but if you've ever been in the plane with me, you'll know that I reaallllyy don't need to perform any more landings than neccesary with anyone from the FAA present....
 

Mr_Creepy

Well-Known Member
If you go to an examiner or inspector for a new rating without 3hrs of instruction towards THAT RATING withing the last 60 days I guarantee they will send you home.

Much discussion about this on private examiner forums.

You must receive instruction prior to any checkride. The private and commercial require 3 hrs in the last 60 days. It has been adopted for CFI as well.

The CFI instruction and sign off must also be from a CFI who has at least two years experience as a CFI, or in other words, has completed at least one CFI renewal process.
 

mtsu_av8er

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The private and commercial require 3 hrs in the last 60 days. It has been adopted for CFI as well.

The CFI instruction and sign off must also be from a CFI who has at least two years experience as a CFI, or in other words, has completed at least one CFI renewal process.


[/ QUOTE ]

I will concede that if you don't get SOME training in the last 60 days, the examiner will see that as pretty irresponsible, and that checkride will be pretty much over. But no examiner can adopt his or her own regulations....now, the TSA on the other hand.....
 

Bluto

New Member
Re: CFII before CFI

Keep in mind, the main reason that the CFII is an easier ride for most people is because they already hold a CFI. The PTS requires many of the same requirements for the initial instructor, whether it's CFI or CFII. Whatever the case, the add-on instructor rating should be an easier ride, since you will already have complied with a portion of the PTS. Personally, I'd rather prepare a student for the initial CFI, since it's easier to learn to explain landings, steep turns, stalls, etc. than NDB holds, at least when you're flustered (a la checkride.)
 

Visceral

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
If you go to an examiner or inspector for a new rating without 3hrs of instruction towards THAT RATING withing the last 60 days I guarantee they will send you home.


[/ QUOTE ]

The FAA sets the rules, and that's what CFIs are supposed to be teaching by. If the rules say I need to train a pilot for a minimum of 4 hours, I can't say "well he's so good he only needs 3." DEs can't make up their own rules based on what THEY think a pilot needs. If a DE lacks the integrity to pass/fail a guy based solely on his PTS performance, I wouldn't want to send him my students anyway.
 

Mr_Creepy

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The FAA sets the rules

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL that's a laugh!

Ask 5 FAA inspectors a question and you will get 5 different answers.

I work with several other examiners and we have several private forums (note: I am an examiner but I have not been selected by a FSDO yet so I can't give check rides.)

The examiner board sets policy on many of these things and the others are pretty much decided by "consensus."

You CFIs should be receiving the examiners newsletter in the mail, read it carefully!

I doubt any would fail the applicant, most likely just send him or her home and tell them to get some more instruction, and then reschedule.
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
You CFIs should be receiving the examiners newsletter in the mail, read it carefully!

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never even heard of examiners sending out newsletters. How do we get them?
 

Visceral

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]

I doubt any would fail the applicant, most likely just send him or her home and tell them to get some more instruction, and then reschedule.


[/ QUOTE ]

Call me crazy, but I thought when I endorse a pilot's logbook for a practical test, I'm writing he <font color="red">HAS</font> received the necessary instruction and meets all the requirements of the CFRs. Are these examiners going to send him back based solely on their perception of how many hours an applicant needs, disregarding the valid endorsement and the clearly defined requirements? Many parts of the CFRs are ambiguous, but I don't think this is one of them. I'd like to know how to get the newsletter too by the way.
 

Mr_Creepy

Well-Known Member
They'd probably call you and ask you what is going on.

I don't know how to get the newsletter. I started getting it when I got my CFI ages ago. It's called the Designated Examiner's Update.

I'll look in to it.
 

TheFlyingTurkey

Fetus Worshiper
Here is where to find the info. on the 3hr in 60 days rule.
Look at AC 61-65D (advisory circular) titled Certification: Pilots and Flight and Ground Instructors
Paragraph 9: Prerequisites for Practical Tests (it applies to ALL practical tests, even CFI's)
Guys, remember that the CFR's can be vague, and there are a lot of AC's. Go to the FAA website, you can view all of the AC's there.
There are 4 different endorsements a CFI applicant needs for the practical test:
A. #24 Endorsement for aeronautical knowledge(flight/ground training)
B. #26 Endorsement for Spin Training
C. #23 Endorsement for FOI
D. #44 Endorsement for 3 hr's training towards a practical test in the last 60 days.

By the way, all the endorsements are listed by # in AC 61-65D

The Turk.
 
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