Question on filing /G

triplec76

Well-Known Member
I have a question about filing /G. If the gps database is not current, can I still file /G for direct, enroute purposes? Or do I file another equipment code then request a direct routing in the remarks section stating I have an out-of-date gps database?

Thanks a lot.
 

xdashdriver

Well-Known Member
File /G and take along current charts with you, then you're in good shape. (Bottom table on AIM 1-1-40)

Ray
 

mtsu_av8er

Well-Known Member
Legally, you're supposed to revert to the code appropriate for your aircraft without the GPS. That being said, if you let the controllers know that you have GPS onboard, they'll let you use it for navigation.

Remember, it's legaly to use a handheld GPS for IMPROVED SITUATIONAL AWARENESS, while flying IFR.
 

triplec76

Well-Known Member
Thanks guys, I thought someone had told me I could file /G, but put in the remarks that the database was expired, and someone else said file /A, file direct and put in the remarks that you have a gps onboard without approach capabilites. Both were instructors, and I couldnt find anything about it in the FAR/AIM so I asked here.

BTW mtsu, did you ever get my email? I visited your site around Thanksgiving, but never heard anything back from you.
 

Looking4Lower

New Member
I had this same issue come up not too long ago. Unless I'm reading the AIM wrong, you can legally file /G for IFR enroute purposes without any remarks or other complications.

Look at the AIM Table 1-1-8 and the notes below it. It says that you can use GPS for enroute and terminal IFR operations with an expired database if you verify the data for correctness (doesn't say what exactly is involved with verifying data).

AIM Table 5-1-2 says that /G is the correct suffix for GPS equipped aircraft with "enroute and terminal capability".

Seems straighforward to me, but I could be missing something.

Jason
 

Tired

New Member
You can verify the data by looking on an IFR chart or AFD, the lat/long is printed on them.
 

sixpack

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
You can verify the data by looking on an IFR chart or AFD, the lat/long is printed on them.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm somewhat unsure about what it means to verify the data.

I figure that you can probably use an expired card for an approach DME if you verify the LOC or VOR hasn't changed position.

However, if your going any distance (50-500nm), wouldn't you have to check the position of all NAVAIDS in the vicinity of any possible routing?
 

Tired

New Member
To be legal you just need to check the NAVAIDS that describe your route. So usually it is just a few points. Anyways, I've never seen a NAVAID moved, I'm sure it happens but not often.
 

FL270

New Member
I've seen several navaids moved in just the last few years. The GNV (Gainesville FL now known as "Gators") VOR was moved and the name changed a couple years ago. The SAV (Savannah) VOR was just recently moved. They decommissioned the old DFW VOR and replaced it with Maverick (TTT) a couple years ago, the location was moved a short distance. The Memphis (MEM) VOR was relocated a few years ago.

So they do move from time to time ... that's why the verification is necessary. But yeah, if you check the waypoints that make up your route you'd be in good shape.

FL270
 

FL270

New Member
Carry appropriate and current charts with you, and check the lat/longs of the navaid as published (they'll be current of course) and make sure they match the ones in the database. If they don't, create a "user defined waypoint" in your database defined by latitude and longitude.

FL270
 

mtsu_av8er

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
BTW mtsu, did you ever get my email? I visited your site around Thanksgiving, but never heard anything back from you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never recieved that email!!! It's a school account, so I probably shouldn't rely on it too much!!!

Thanks for visiting the site!! I'm working on some improvements to it....so make sure that you come back and visit!!! Can't keep the same boring crap up there!!!
 

zlpratt

New Member
I have always been told that if it isn't current on the database, then you don't have it on the plane as far as IFR goes. But now I am confused
I searched the regs and /g is only defined as having a GPS capable of being used enroute and in terminal environment. But here is the question... If the database isn't current in our schools GNS 430s the GPS tells you that it is VFR only, and then further advises you if you select an approach that it should only be used for practice. Maybe there is an advisory circular out on this?? Anyways it got me thinking, good thread!!!


ZP
 

xdashdriver

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I figure that you can probably use an expired card for an approach DME if you verify the LOC or VOR hasn't changed position.

[/ QUOTE ]

AIM Table 1-1-8 on page 1-1-40 specifically mentions that to use GPS in lieu of DME or ADF, you MUST have a current database. Additionally, you must use the GPS in accordance with the limitations contained in its flight manual supplement.
 

xdashdriver

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I have always been told that if it isn't current on the database, then you don't have it on the plane as far as IFR goes. But now I am confused
I searched the regs and /g is only defined as having a GPS capable of being used enroute and in terminal environment. But here is the question... If the database isn't current in our schools GNS 430s the GPS tells you that it is VFR only, and then further advises you if you select an approach that it should only be used for practice. Maybe there is an advisory circular out on this?? Anyways it got me thinking, good thread!!!


ZP

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a whole AIM section on this very topic. It should be used in conjunction with the AFM supplement for the GPS unit, with the SUPPLEMENT taking precedence over anything the AIM says. Read AIM Para 1-1-21 and your GPS AFM supplement very carefully and most, if not all of your questions should be very quickly answered.

Ray
 

zlpratt

New Member
I just found this information in AC-20-138. Here is the paragraph that discusses Navigation databases under IFR flight.

[ QUOTE ]
(9) Navigation Data Base. The GPS equipment shall incorporate an appropriately
updatable navigation data base (in the WGS-84 or NAD-83 coordinate datum) containing at least the
following location information in terms of latitude and longitude with a resolution of 0.01 minute or
better for the area(s) in which IFR operations are to be conducted: all airports, VOR's (and
VORTAC's), NDB's, and all named waypoints and intersections shown on en route and terminal area
charts, Standard Instrument Departures (SID's) and Standard Terminal Arrival Routes (STAR's). For
Class A1 equipment, the navigation data base must also include all waypoints and intersections included
in published non-precision instrument approach (except localizer, LDA, and SDF) procedures.
Instrument approaches must be conducted using a current data base. User entry or modification of
navigation data base data shall not be possible. (This does not preclude the storage of "user defined
data" within the equipment.) Additional data base coding, storage, and approach waypoint presentation
requirements as specified in TSO-C129 must be provided. Navigation data bases shall meet the standards specified in sections 3, 4, and 5 of RTCA/DO-200, "Preparation, Verification and Distribution
of User Selectable Navigation Data Bases" and sections 2 through 7 of RTCA/DO-201, "User
Recommendations for Aeronautical Information Services."

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is the link if anyone is interested in reading more about GPS, it is actually good reading by advisory circular standards.

AC-20-138

The thing about this, and as usual with the FAA, is that it doesn't say anything about dates or expiration. All it says is..

[ QUOTE ]
The GPS equipment shall incorporate an appropriately
updatable navigation data base (in the WGS-84 or NAD-83 coordinate datum) containing at least the
following location information in terms of latitude and longitude with a resolution of 0.01 minute or
better for the area(s) in which IFR operations are to be conducted: all airports, VOR's (and
VORTAC's), NDB's, and all named waypoints and intersections shown on en route and terminal area
charts, Standard Instrument Departures (SID's) and Standard Terminal Arrival Routes (STAR's).

[/ QUOTE ]

This still leaves some amount of confusion in my head about what constitutes a GPS being current for IFR. Oh well, maybe someone else in this forum will be able to digest this information for a good solid answer!

ZP
 

zlpratt

New Member
Thanks Ray, I read over that post actually if I had seen that I wouldn't have posted the AC. That makes a lot of sense, thanks for pointing it out to me!!
 

mtsu_av8er

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
This still leaves some amount of confusion in my head about what constitutes a GPS being current for IFRZP



[/ QUOTE ]

It's just like the issue of whether or not a pilot uses current charts. Of course, if you're ramped, you can be violated for nearly anything an inspector finds unsafe. But how many pilots are out there using expired charts?

Now, we've examined the books and the AIM and the FARS and everything else. Let's talk the real world of flying here....the way most people do it.

Everybody here that uses NACO charts....when was the last time you did a 28-day update? Haven't done one? Well, I hope that you didn't need to change something in your charts, because you were illegal.

Did you not only read the FDC NOTAMS, but make the appropriate changes to the charts in your book? Did you add the waypoints, and change the MDAs on the approaches?

If you didn't, then you aren't current...

I'm not trying to be an arse here, really. I'm just trying to make a point. I definately wouldn't file /G with a database that isn't current.... There are exceptions to every rule. For example, the ZME (Memphis Center) are pretty much jack-arses. If you file /U, and then ask for direct anything, they get confused. If you can safely navigate with the GPS, your only hope is to file /G.....not that you should.

I digress.....

Once you're in the air, use any resource available to you. I flew around KCLT one time, and my only hope of not deviating 100 miles out of my way was to navigate direct to the HUSTN intersection. With a /U aircraft, however, that wouldn't have been possible.

Guess that old handheld does come in handy (in this case, ONLY IN VFR CONDITIONS!!!!).
 

triplec76

Well-Known Member
Thanks for all the info, guys. It really didnt seem right to me to file /G if the database was expired, because what if a controller maybe didnt see that you put expired database in the remarks, or if the person filing your plan didnt put it in there the exact way you wanted and something was lost in translation. You could find yourself in some deep water for sure. I guess it would just be best to file for the equipment you actually have on the plane then ask ATC for direct when getting clearance.

mtsu, I will send another email to that same account and see if it gets there. If not, Ill just PM you.
 
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