Purdue Purchases 16 SR20s

Adler

Low-Level Individual
From what I understand, the Phenom will still be utilized to transport staff/faculty (cough Cordova cough). I have a feeling she's not going to be into doing V1 cuts in the back.
That was my feeling. None of the schools with the fancy toys let the students abuse it, VIP transport only.
 

element94

Well-Known Member
I have a lengthy response for this, but I'm running out the door. From what I understand, the Phenom will still be utilized to transport staff/faculty (cough Cordova cough). I have a feeling she's not going to be into doing V1 cuts in the back.
According to the people designing the program, VIP transport is secondary to flight training. Yes, I know that sounds illogical, but I've confirmed it multiple times (I couldn't really believe it either, to be honest).

After Purdue's recent budgetary cuts from the Indiana legislature, they were forced to sell the King Air's and the Beechjet. As such, each VIP flight now will be billed directly to the department on a schedule permitting basis...From a financial standpoint, VIP flight ops is completely changing.

However, the primary justification for the purpose of the Phenom is flight training, billed to the student receiving it. Unlike the TFO program this plane is replacing, we have to pay for the flight hours -- that way they can guarantee each student a certain amount of turbine and ops training hours which dwindled significantly in the past few years as it depended on frequent VIP travel. To make the program work, TFO needed 300 hours of flight time per semester (between the two King Air's)...I think since Spring 2008, the average was somewhere between 50 and 150 (according to Petrin).
 

Torch1930

Well-Known Member
According to the people designing the program, VIP transport is secondary to flight training. Yes, I know that sounds illogical, but I've confirmed it multiple times (I couldn't really believe it either, to be honest).

After Purdue's recent budgetary cuts from the Indiana legislature, they were forced to sell the King Air's and the Beechjet. As such, each VIP flight now will be billed directly to the department on a schedule permitting basis...From a financial standpoint, VIP flight ops is completely changing.

However, the primary justification for the purpose of the Phenom is flight training, billed to the student receiving it. Unlike the TFO program this plane is replacing, we have to pay for the flight hours -- that way they can guarantee each student a certain amount of turbine and ops training hours which dwindled significantly in the past few years as it depended on frequent VIP travel. To make the program work, TFO needed 300 hours of flight time per semester (between the two King Air's)...I think since Spring 2008, the average was somewhere between 50 and 150 (according to Petrin).
I've heard the same. The TFO trips in the Phenom will be off-peak only (5:30 pm-7:30 am or whenever there's no scheduled students). Also, the Purdue Research Foundation owns the Beechjet while the King Airs are owned by Purdue University. That's why the Beechjet isn't up for sale yet (last I checked) and the two King Airs are. Fanjoy said they may keep the Beechjet and have grad students fly as copilots.
 

ClearedToThe

Well-Known Member
I've heard the same. The TFO trips in the Phenom will be off-peak only (5:30 pm-7:30 am or whenever there's no scheduled students). Also, the Purdue Research Foundation owns the Beechjet while the King Airs are owned by Purdue University. That's why the Beechjet isn't up for sale yet (last I checked) and the two King Airs are. Fanjoy said they may keep the Beechjet and have grad students fly as copilots.
Unpaid no doubt. :crazy: The race to the bottom continues. How is this fundamentally any different then Gulfstream's PFJ program? You are paying for a type rating and also paying to be a required crewmember.
 

amd87

Well-Known Member
Unpaid no doubt. :crazy: The race to the bottom continues. How is this fundamentally any different then Gulfstream's PFJ program? You are paying for a type rating and also paying to be a required crewmember.
Currently Purdue pays for Flight Safety and gives you a $2000 scholarship. Per Diem for the trip to Wichita was more than I made in a month CFIing! I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry...
 

GUNIT

Well-Known Member
Currently Purdue pays for Flight Safety and gives you a $2000 scholarship. Per Diem for the trip to Wichita was more than I made in a month CFIing! I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry...

Emphasis is on currently; the current Beechjet program is legitamite. The proposed changes, however, are really blurring the line of whether Purdue is getting involved with PFJ or not. I really doubt the TFO operation will be able to consolidate operations into off peak hours. Cordova and her minions will not want to fly during the off hours and spend unnecessary overnights in various locales. Doing V1 cuts, emergency descents, etc. will be quite a strain on the airplane and the instructors. Mitch, Petrin, and Carnie will be incredibly stressed if they begin to do type training in the Phenom (acutal airplane). If everything was going to be done in the actual airplane, what is the point of purchasing the FTD and retraining all of the 72 instructors on it? If Purdue has never offered a full type rating in the past, I can't imagine why they would do it now. The 72 instructors have many hours of PIC in the 72's and the simulators meet the required levels.

The Phenom is a VERY touchy airplane and one that a lot of students will have a great deal of trouble adjusting to. The airplane is very fast and if you are not prepared for this then you will have a great deal of trouble adjusting; it is imperative that you FLY THE FLIGHT DIRECTOR. I've seen enough students having trouble with the warrior, nevertheless an aircraft travelling three times as fast with a whole new glass cockpit suite.

If I was in Purdue's shoes, I would have just retrofitted the King Airs with Proline 21. This would be much more applicable to current airframes and future avionics systems than the G1000. There is no doubt the G1000 is the future of GA, but it is by no means a comprehensive flight management system in the nature of Collins or Honeywell systems. Unfortunately, Purdue is under the guise of poor leadership who are unable to recognize trends in the industry and are most concerned with the continued fiscal success of the flight program rather than the education of students.
 

amd87

Well-Known Member
Emphasis is on currently; the current Beechjet program is legitamite. The proposed changes, however, are really blurring the line of whether Purdue is getting involved with PFJ or not. I really doubt the TFO operation will be able to consolidate operations into off peak hours. Cordova and her minions will not want to fly during the off hours and spend unnecessary overnights in various locales. Doing V1 cuts, emergency descents, etc. will be quite a strain on the airplane and the instructors. Mitch, Petrin, and Carnie will be incredibly stressed if they begin to do type training in the Phenom (acutal airplane). If everything was going to be done in the actual airplane, what is the point of purchasing the FTD and retraining all of the 72 instructors on it? If Purdue has never offered a full type rating in the past, I can't imagine why they would do it now. The 72 instructors have many hours of PIC in the 72's and the simulators meet the required levels.

The Phenom is a VERY touchy airplane and one that a lot of students will have a great deal of trouble adjusting to. The airplane is very fast and if you are not prepared for this then you will have a great deal of trouble adjusting; it is imperative that you FLY THE FLIGHT DIRECTOR. I've seen enough students having trouble with the warrior, nevertheless an aircraft travelling three times as fast with a whole new glass cockpit suite.

If I was in Purdue's shoes, I would have just retrofitted the King Airs with Proline 21. This would be much more applicable to current airframes and future avionics systems than the G1000. There is no doubt the G1000 is the future of GA, but it is by no means a comprehensive flight management system in the nature of Collins or Honeywell systems. Unfortunately, Purdue is under the guise of poor leadership who are unable to recognize trends in the industry and are most concerned with the continued fiscal success of the flight program rather than the education of students.
From the outside looking in (I'm no longer at Purdue), the proposed Phenom program is not really PFJ since the student would not be acting as a required crew member. However, it would be very STUPID for someone to pay to be in that seat. I see these changes as a detriment to the program.

I believe they should keep what they have...the Beechjet acts as a carrot to drive those with some ambition to work beyond the school's often lax standards. At least what they have now doesn't dabble much with PFJ. Although you don't get a paycheck, in my example, scholarship / block hour = $50/hr.
 

Torch1930

Well-Known Member
In response to a couple of things:

I talked to Fanjoy and he claims there's a plan to eliminate the full time instructors in the future and replace them with grad students. This way they can pay them at grad student rates and will save the university money. I am sure that they will still pay for the Beechjet type for students selected to fly it.

The faculty claims they never intended on doing TFO trips with the Phenom so I don't think that's really a big issue. It isn't something they're really interested in doing in the first place. I think that's why they're keeping the Beechjet around in the meantime.

It will apparently cost around $750 an hour in the Phenom and they say a type will be about $10,000. It will supposedly include a semesters worht of FTD time and about 10 hours in the airplane. That's all I've heard as far as price goes.

They seem to think the idea of leaving with a type rating is revolutionary and will help graduates get jobs. That's why they're trying so hard to do it. Also, all the faculty mentioned (Mitch, Carney, and Petrin) are almost at retirement. Who knows if they'll even be the ones instructing in it. I personally think it's crazy to give people a PIC type rating in a Phenom. What are you going to do with that?!? My feelings are the people who are going to buy Phenoms (doctors, lawyers, CEOs) are probably going to want to fly it themselves. I couldn't think of a more useless type rating but that's just my two cents on the issue.
 

ClearedToThe

Well-Known Member
In response to a couple of things:

I talked to Fanjoy and he claims there's a plan to eliminate the full time instructors in the future and replace them with grad students. This way they can pay them at grad student rates and will save the university money. I am sure that they will still pay for the Beechjet type for students selected to fly it.

The faculty claims they never intended on doing TFO trips with the Phenom so I don't think that's really a big issue. It isn't something they're really interested in doing in the first place. I think that's why they're keeping the Beechjet around in the meantime.

It will apparently cost around $750 an hour in the Phenom and they say a type will be about $10,000. It will supposedly include a semesters worht of FTD time and about 10 hours in the airplane. That's all I've heard as far as price goes.

They seem to think the idea of leaving with a type rating is revolutionary and will help graduates get jobs. That's why they're trying so hard to do it. Also, all the faculty mentioned (Mitch, Carney, and Petrin) are almost at retirement. Who knows if they'll even be the ones instructing in it. I personally think it's crazy to give people a PIC type rating in a Phenom. What are you going to do with that?!? My feelings are the people who are going to buy Phenoms (doctors, lawyers, CEOs) are probably going to want to fly it themselves. I couldn't think of a more useless type rating but that's just my two cents on the issue.
So now the only decent paying Purdue instructing jobs are getting replaced by lower paying (read ~$8/hr) part-time positions?? Glad to see the mainline-farming-out-to-lower-cost-labor mentality is working its way into university flight programs.

As was previously mentioned - the flight program administration is so out of touch with reality, it is almost amusing.
 

GUNIT

Well-Known Member
In response to a couple of things:

I talked to Fanjoy and he claims there's a plan to eliminate the full time instructors in the future and replace them with grad students. This way they can pay them at grad student rates and will save the university money. I am sure that they will still pay for the Beechjet type for students selected to fly it.

The faculty claims they never intended on doing TFO trips with the Phenom so I don't think that's really a big issue. It isn't something they're really interested in doing in the first place. I think that's why they're keeping the Beechjet around in the meantime.

It will apparently cost around $750 an hour in the Phenom and they say a type will be about $10,000. It will supposedly include a semesters worht of FTD time and about 10 hours in the airplane. That's all I've heard as far as price goes.

They seem to think the idea of leaving with a type rating is revolutionary and will help graduates get jobs. That's why they're trying so hard to do it. Also, all the faculty mentioned (Mitch, Carney, and Petrin) are almost at retirement. Who knows if they'll even be the ones instructing in it. I personally think it's crazy to give people a PIC type rating in a Phenom. What are you going to do with that?!? My feelings are the people who are going to buy Phenoms (doctors, lawyers, CEOs) are probably going to want to fly it themselves. I couldn't think of a more useless type rating but that's just my two cents on the issue.

Gotcha. You're a smart man. Are they going to make the '11 grads get the type?
 

element94

Well-Known Member
In defense of the administration (I know it's dangerous), they're not giving us a type so that we can go out and be PIC in a Phenom, they're doing it as a demonstration of knowledge and pilot proficiency. Having a jet type rating not only confers familiarity with turbine operations, systems, and procedures, but it also requires applicants to pass an FAA checkride in the aircraft at the ATP certification level standard. Currently, the last two years of the program is nearly entirely 727 simulator work, none of which is loggable. In addition to the standard CSEL/CMEL/IA certifications earned in the first 2.5 years (all in piston driven aircraft), the type rating legitimizes the last two years of the PFT program.

Is it pragmatic? No. Does it put your resume above the rest? Probably. But even more so, it exposes students to real world turbine operations, an invaluable learning experience if nothing else.

The disparity between what I hear most of you saying deals with the economic efficiency of the educational package. If I wanted to minimally qualify myself for a job, I could certainly do it faster, cheaper, and easier elsewhere. However, I would put some stock in the academic quality of what Purdue is offering. They are making valiant efforts to train us well beyond what is required, and in light of disgruntled regional airline captains complaining of under-qualified F/O's, I don't think that's a step in the wrong direction.

My $0.02...
 

Kestrel452

New Member
You've got to be kidding me. They are making kids pay an extra $10,000 in flight costs for worthless turbine time and a worthless rating.

Doing an hour in the King Air was good, because it makes what you learned in turbine systems class come together somewhat, and it didn't cost an arm and a leg. There is NO point to trying to log a bunch of turbine time in college because you wouldn't meet the mins for the turbine A/C spots with companies that operate them anyways.

I am not happy about what Purdue is doing one bit. They are scrapping the King Airs for Phenom jets, and are buying SR20s to replace the Warriors. They are also going to replace the full time CFIs with grad students. They're doing a bunch of other things that just scream "out of touch with reality" that it makes me furious (well, it would if i was actually in Purdue flight).

I could write a whole rant about what Purdue is doing to their flight program, but it's worthless to me so I'll keep it short.

The worst part of it all, is that 90% of these flight program kids have no idea how what Purdue is doing will hurt them tremendously. Seriously, joining an online aviation forum like APC or JetCareers so they could gain a little sense of reality would do these flight kids a world of good. College flight programs are becoming a joke.
 

Kestrel452

New Member
This whole BS process has started because of 2 factors:

1) They want to tickle these kids' Shiny Jet Syndrome, because they know people are wising up to the fact that a college aviation degree doesn't matter at all when applying for a job; and does nothing but lock you into being a pilot.

2) The whole "I am going to fly fancy jets and glass panels when I get out of school" mentality that people seemed to have picked up. Unless you're working for a flight school that uses glass panel airplanes, don't expect to be flying anything fancy. Especially if you are flying cargo.

They had the HOLY GRAIL of a fleet and equipment setup, and they're throwing it away for fancy toys. My new CFI is absolutely flabbergasted over the new SR20s and phenoms, but I'll bet you $1,000 that he hasn't ever step foot in an aviation forum and been shown the light of what planes you will most likely end up flying right out of school. Or shown why all these fancy toys are worthless and will hurt you more than they help.

EDIT: Holy Christmas Jew! They bought a CRJ simulator?!?!?! That's triple the worthlessness of anything they've bought recently! That money would have been better spent updating the King Airs.
 

challenger

New Member
You've got to be kidding me. They are making kids pay an extra $10,000 in flight costs for worthless turbine time and a worthless rating.

Doing an hour in the King Air was good, because it makes what you learned in turbine systems class come together somewhat, and it didn't cost an arm and a leg. There is NO point to trying to log a bunch of turbine time in college because you wouldn't meet the mins for the turbine A/C spots with companies that operate them anyways.

I am not happy about what Purdue is doing one bit. They are scrapping the King Airs for Phenom jets, and are buying SR20s to replace the Warriors. They are also going to replace the full time CFIs with grad students. They're doing a bunch of other things that just scream "out of touch with reality" that it makes me furious (well, it would if i was actually in Purdue flight).

I could write a whole rant about what Purdue is doing to their flight program, but it's worthless to me so I'll keep it short.

The worst part of it all, is that 90% of these flight program kids have no idea how what Purdue is doing will hurt them tremendously. Seriously, joining an online aviation forum like APC or JetCareers so they could gain a little sense of reality would do these flight kids a world of good. College flight programs are becoming a joke.

Pish posh, atleast they are not outsourcing like UND is. I would love the chance to fly Cirrus's
 
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