PIA A320 crash in Karachi

Nark

Macho Superpilot
Have a gear disagree or some other warning > think it is false or misinterpret the warning > silence/ignore the gear horn > forget to select gear down and/or not realize that you don't have 3 green > notice at the last second/ground contact?
There are a plethora of indicators on the bus, telling you whether the gear is down, or in an unsafe position. Visual and aural.
 

Inverted

The journey is the meat in the goal sandwich
I have 2,500 hours in the Airbus and I am still reasonably confident the gear will just come out if you forget it .

I have had one gear issue in that amount of time. Threw the gear out on the visual and no “thud”and resulting wind noise. Gear indication went red (disagreement). Put the handle back up, then cycling it down again. Gear came out and we landed uneventfully. Turns out the LGCIU has two channels, and one of them failed, so cycling the gear made it swap channels. Who knows what happened here but they could have also thrown the handle down and just moved on to other things, not knowing that the gear didn’t pop out...
 

Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
ATC tape the pilot says established at 3,500 ft on the ILS. Controller says you’re only 5 miles from the runway. Should be at 1,500 ft right? Hypothetical..... go full flaps and pitch down like a bat out of hell. Flaps overspeed, master warning. Don’t throw gear down because they forget. But isn’t the master warning for no gear the same as the flap over speeding also master warning? Yes you get “too low gear” but with overspeed warnings, who know if their brains registered it?

Not an official source, but a retired PIA pilot I know claims he heard from a runway inspection at KHI that engine scrape marks were found at 5000-6000 ft down the runway. If so, then the theory above sounds very plausible. It matches them being high and then floating it.
 

Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
One complaint I have for the Bus. You can be flaps full and gear up, there’s no noise/tone/warning. The CRJ if you went flaps 45 (full) and gear was still up, you’d get a warning noise/tone.
 

Toobdrvr

Estrellas Asesino
I have 2,500 hours in the Airbus and I am still reasonably confident the gear will just come out if you forget it .
I don’t believe this is true.


One complaint I have for the Bus. You can be flaps full and gear up, there’s no noise/tone/warning.
This either. I’ve been out of the plane for a couple of years, but I flew it for 12 and can remember if you select F4 with the gear handle up, you get a CRC. Edit: Unless you silence the warning through either the emergency cancel or the aural cancel on the overhead (for water landing).
 

Skåning

Well-Known Member
I think if the nose gear failed to extend or collapsed on landing you could grind the nacelles and still get her back in the air. This scenario looks like a good way to FOD both engines.
It's the only way I can see that you'd be able to FOD them both and get back in the air without a tail-strike.
If the mains are down and the nose is on the ground then why go-around? Maybe not even enough elevator authority to get the nose back up from being that low.
 

Boris Badenov

Someone should definitely do *something*, Captain!
If the mains are down and the nose is on the ground then why go-around? Maybe not even enough elevator authority to get the nose back up from being that low.
Who knows. I suppose it's also possible that they yanked the gear up too fast on a go-around? In any case it seems awfully likely to me that they somehow managed to drag the engines on the ground and thereby liberated the oil leading rather inevitably to a glider.
 

Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
This either. I’ve been out of the plane for a couple of years, but I flew it for 12 and can remember if you select F4 with the gear handle up, you get a CRC. Edit: Unless you silence the warning through either the emergency cancel or the aural cancel on the overhead (for water landing).
Paging our expert @PeanuckleCRJ

Flaps full with no gear down, is that a warning/CRC? I swear I’ve been locked on a LOC/GS when we were told slowest practical, while still way out, that we went to flaps full and left gear up and don’t recall noises. I could be mistaken though.
 

Toobdrvr

Estrellas Asesino
Paging our expert @PeanuckleCRJ

Flaps full with no gear down, is that a warning/CRC? I swear I’ve been locked on a LOC/GS when we were told slowest practical, while still way out, that we went to flaps full and left gear up and don’t recall noises. I could be mistaken though.
Fun trivia: The warning is connected to the gear HANDLE only. As long as you select gear down first, you can go F4 while the gear’s in transit, and no CRC! I’ve won beers over that.
 

Boris Badenov

Someone should definitely do *something*, Captain!
Maybe if they were fast and floating with none of the gear and just let it touch down flat?
Yeah, I suppose if they were really fast the required deck angle might be less than the what appears to me to be about 5 degrees necessary to get a tail strike. Rumor on pprune is that the indications on the runway are that they hit about 5-6000 ft down...so uhm, they may have prevented another overrun accident by forgetting to put the gear down and killing everyone.
 

Toobdrvr

Estrellas Asesino
Is that ding ding ding the gear warning? Or is is associated with other warnings?

CRC = “Continuous Repetitive Chime”. It’s basically a “Master Warning”. Also has flashing red Master Warning switches on the glareshield. Could be any number of (bad) issues, including Gear.
 

knot4u

Repeat Offender
Who knows. I suppose it's also possible that they yanked the gear up too fast on a go-around? In any case it seems awfully likely to me that they somehow managed to drag the engines on the ground and thereby liberated the oil leading rather inevitably to a glider.
I don't recall ever draining the oil from a turbine engine that was that dark unless it mixed with something. Changing a Spey on a G-II was always a filthy job because they leaked and they had generators, the dust from the brushes would mix with the oil and coat everything on the bottom of the engine. I doubt an A320 has generators (or alternators) that have brushes, but I've never worked on one.
 

ChasenSFO

hen teaser
Welp, looks like you guys were probably right. Local news outlets reporting that it "appears" that the approach was unstable and the crew forgot the gear and did indeed hit the deck and go around with damaged engines. Nothing official yet, but as this seems probable, holy crap. Captain had 17,000 hours. Gear was down at the time of the crash, which was the second attempt, so I guess it worked...I mean you can hear the (probable) gear horn beeping in the landing clearance read back...how...eh, it'll be an interesting report.

Someone on another site dug up a similar incident with PIA, that awkward moment when you land a 747 and forget to lower the gear.



 
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