Part 61 PPL, IR then 141 Comm.??

FlyingFireman

New Member
Is it possible to do all the ratings part 61, and then go to a 141 school for the CSEL?

The reason I ask is due to the flight time requirement being less at 141, would it make sense to take this route?

I have read through the FAR regarding this, and am unclear on whether or not it is possible.

Second question: what is the definite total time requirement to get csel under part 141? I read 120 hours, plus 55 hrs of instruction...is this correct??

Thanks!
 

woog315

Well-Known Member
part 141 "requirements" don't really exist as each school's curriculum is approved on an individual basis, its typically ~190 hours for 141 commercial though. Ive seen it as low as 170,and who knows some school might have even lower approved numbers.
 

phoenix 23684

Well-Known Member
Yes!

I recommend you def do your PPL part 61 so you can enjoy it more. I did oart 61 PPL, then went to a part 141 school and got my Instrument, and later my Commercial.
I personally prefered this route because it allows more flexibility for your PPL and I was able to enjoy it and do whatever me and my instructor felt that I needed to spend time on. I did my commercial at Riddle and although silly expensive I was glad that I did since it really buttoned up a lot of loose ends plus I was able to get my commercial with about 180 hrs, can't quite remember but def less than 250.
Go for it, just make sure you have a good flight instructor.

good luck
 

CoffeeIcePapers

Well-Hung Member
Is it possible to do all the ratings part 61, and then go to a 141 school for the CSEL?

The reason I ask is due to the flight time requirement being less at 141, would it make sense to take this route?

I have read through the FAR regarding this, and am unclear on whether or not it is possible.

Second question: what is the definite total time requirement to get csel under part 141? I read 120 hours, plus 55 hrs of instruction...is this correct??

Thanks!
You will spend much more money going this route. For Part 61 instrument, you need 50 hours of PIC XC and 40 hours of simulated instrument. This would all count towards the 250TT for Part 61 Commercial, but NOT for the Part 141 Commercial. The Part 141 Commercial is 120 hours of training from the BEGINNING of your Commercial training, to the end of it and doesn't include ANY previous flight time.

4. Flight training. (a) Each approved course must include at least the following flight training, as provided in this section and section No. 5 of this appendix, on the approved areas of operation listed in paragraph (d) of this section that are appropriate to the aircraft category and class rating for which the course applies:
(1) 120 hours of training if the course is for an airplane or powered-lift rating.
 

aeroman2

New Member
So, do you guys think that it would be cheaper to do the instrument part 61? I already have exactly 27.6 cross country hours, I am assuming the 50 hours have to be over 50 nm?
 

minitour

New Member
You could always......

Enroll in a 141 commercial course right after your part 61 PPL. You need the instrument rating prior to course COMPLETION, not enrollment. Just get the Chief Instructor to sign off on it and it's no big deal.

You'll get PIC XC hours in the 141 commercial and all of those count towards your Instrument (61) experience requirements.

Then hop in the plane for 40 hours with a CFII and knock out your instrument.

Of course, I'd have to guess that it'll still be more expensive than just doing the instrument and commercial part 61.

If you can find a 141 instrument program, that's definitely the least expensive way as it eliminates 50 hours of xc time building, but it also eliminates 50 hours of experience.

-mini
 

CoffeeIcePapers

Well-Hung Member
You could always......

Enroll in a 141 commercial course right after your part 61 PPL. You need the instrument rating prior to course COMPLETION, not enrollment. Just get the Chief Instructor to sign off on it and it's no big deal.


You have to follow the approved 141 syllabus, so I doubt this will work. My recommendation would be to get your instrument under part 61 and continue to build the 250 hours of total time. It will save you money long term, trust me.
 

minitour

New Member
You have to follow the approved 141 syllabus, so I doubt this will work. My recommendation would be to get your instrument under part 61 and continue to build the 250 hours of total time. It will save you money long term, trust me.
...and the approved syllabus is required to include cross country time, which is all that you're after.

You can doubt it if you want, but I've done it. When I was doing the chief instructor thing I had noooooooooo problem enrolling students for projects like that.

141 Appendix D said:
5. Solo training. Each approved course must include at least the following solo flight training:
(a) For an airplane single-engine course: 10 hours of solo flight training in a single-engine airplane on the approved areas of operation in paragraph (d)(1) of section No. 4 of this appendix that includes at least—
(1) One cross-country flight, if the training is being performed in the State of Hawaii, with landings at a minimum of three points, and one of the segments consisting of a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles;
(2) One cross-country flight, if the training is being performed in a State other than Hawaii, with landings at a minimum of three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles; and
(3) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight with a traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
At least you'll get some of the required PIC xc there (solo is PIC).

141 Appendix D said:
(b) Each approved course must include at least the following flight training:
(1) For an airplane single-engine course: 55 hours of flight training from a certificated flight instructor on the approved areas of operation listed in paragraph (d)(1) of this section that includes at least—
(i) 5 hours of instrument training in a single-engine airplane;

(remember that of the 40 hours for part 61 instrument, it doesn't all have to be with a CFII working on the instrument rating)



(ii) 10 hours of training in a single-engine airplane that has retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, or is turbine-powered;
(iii) One cross-country flight in a single-engine airplane of at least a 2-hour duration, a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure, and occurring in day VFR conditions;
(iv) One cross-country flight in a single-engine airplane of at least a 2-hour duration, a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure, and occurring in night VFR conditions; and
(v) 3 hours in a single-engine airplane in preparation for the practical test within 60 days preceding the date of the test.
and there's some more of your PIC xc time. Not "part 1" PIC, but you can log it as PIC which is all that you're after to get your certificate/rating.

Also, while you must complete each lesson in the 141 syllabus, you're not directly limited to how many times you may repeat a lesson if you needed some more, or you could get the "more xc time" working with your CFII on your instrument rating.

I'm a believer in doing IFR xc's with a CFII vs. going out and shooting 9300 approaches per lesson. Obviously, if you can't shoot the approaches then going into airports and following SIDs and STARs is going to be pointless, but once you're proficient with them you should get some experience at busy, slow and in-between airports. Anyway, off of my soap box...

It's do-able, but it's going to be expensive. I'll agree with mojo, do everything part 61 if you aren't doing the instrument rating under part 141.

-mini
 

phoenix 23684

Well-Known Member
You will spend much more money going this route. For Part 61 instrument, you need 50 hours of PIC XC and 40 hours of simulated instrument. This would all count towards the 250TT for Part 61 Commercial, but NOT for the Part 141 Commercial. The Part 141 Commercial is 120 hours of training from the BEGINNING of your Commercial training, to the end of it and doesn't include ANY previous flight time.
Did you do part 141? Ever??? That statement is totally false, my part 141 required 21-26 lessons and that's including the 250 nm requirement, don't even think that I logged more than 30-50 hours, can't quite remember, but def not 120. Don't listen to that, there are many ways of doing it and I liked part 141, I enjoy the structure, is up to you to decide.
 

minitour

New Member
Did you do part 141? Ever??? That statement is totally false, my part 141 required 21-26 lessons and that's including the 250 nm requirement, don't even think that I logged more than 30-50 hours, can't quite remember, but def not 120. Don't listen to that, there are many ways of doing it and I liked part 141, I enjoy the structure, is up to you to decide.
I know the FAA has approved special curricula for the commercial with less than 120 hours, but I would have to see the syllabus to believe 30-50 hours.

I've seen (IIRC) 90 hours, which was the program I did. Are you perhaps referring to just the instruction (dual) portion?

When part 141 refers to "training", solo time is included in that, so perhaps you only had to do 50 hours (not 55) of dual. That would be something you could get approved in a "short course" (special curricula), I'd think. It just depends on the POI at that point.

Or, did you have 200 hours when you enrolled in a 141 course only to finish it part 61? Some have done that, I never understood why.

Where did you do your 141 commercial? I'd love to see their syllabus and talk to them about how they got a 30-50 hour commercial approved. Again, not saying it doesn't exist or anything, just that after writing TCOs for 141, it's something I'd have to see to believe 100%.

-mini
 

MusketeerMan

Well-Known Member
Do NOT do the commercial part 141...

Save yourself time and money. Part 141 commercial alone requires 55 hours of cross country time WITH an instructor, which is a joke...you don't need more than 20 hours total to complete your CSEL. I always told my students to do it part 61.

my .02
 

aeroman2

New Member
Do NOT do the commercial part 141...

Save yourself time and money. Part 141 commercial alone requires 55 hours of cross country time WITH an instructor, which is a joke...you don't need more than 20 hours total to complete your CSEL. I always told my students to do it part 61.

my .02
so do you recommend 61 for instrument too or 141?
 

minitour

New Member
so do you recommend 61 for instrument too or 141?
Might as well.

FWIW, 141 does not require 55 hours of dual cross country. It requires 55 hours of dual, of which at least 4 must be cross country (1 day, 1 night flight - two hours each), plus 10 in a complex airplane, 3 hours prepping for the practical, etc.

-mini
 

aeroman2

New Member
Might as well.

FWIW, 141 does not require 55 hours of dual cross country. It requires 55 hours of dual, of which at least 4 must be cross country (1 day, 1 night flight - two hours each), plus 10 in a complex airplane, 3 hours prepping for the practical, etc.

-mini
No i belive this is for commercial, I was thread hijiking and was wondering about that for instrument training
 

minitour

New Member
No i belive this is for commercial, I was thread hijiking and was wondering about that for instrument training

Yeah, I had ya. That was my "might as well" comment.

Might as well do it all 61. I did 141 and wish I would have done 61. Just a little more freedom to do a few things differently.

-mini
 

germb747

Well-Known Member
I recommend Part 61, but of course I'm biased, as I did my initial training that way. I never understood the purpose of Part 141. Part 61 allows the instructor to tailor the lessons to your individual progress to a much higher degree than Part 141. Plus, it's the same certificate in the end, and no one is getting a job at 190 hours TT, so who cares?
 

minitour

New Member
I recommend Part 61, but of course I'm biased, as I did my initial training that way. I never understood the purpose of Part 141. Part 61 allows the instructor to tailor the lessons to your individual progress to a much higher degree than Part 141. Plus, it's the same certificate in the end, and no one is getting a job at 190 hours TT, so who cares?
For one, the VA won't "bless" any part 61 schools, so that's a good purpose.
Also, there are more financial aid options for part 141 "schools", so that's another "good".
Some people are drawn to the self-examining schools, so that's another thing you can do with part 141.

Some students like the "big brother oversight" the FAA gives its 141 schools.

Personal preference. The only certificates I'd never ever ever consider doing part 141 is the ATP. By the time you're ready for that, if you need 25 hours of flight training for it, something is seriously wrong.

-mini
 

germb747

Well-Known Member
For one, the VA won't "bless" any part 61 schools, so that's a good purpose.
Also, there are more financial aid options for part 141 "schools", so that's another "good".
Some people are drawn to the self-examining schools, so that's another thing you can do with part 141.

Some students like the "big brother oversight" the FAA gives its 141 schools.

Personal preference. The only certificates I'd never ever ever consider doing part 141 is the ATP. By the time you're ready for that, if you need 25 hours of flight training for it, something is seriously wrong.

-mini
Yea, if Uncle Sam is footing the bill, that's pretty much the only way to go. But, the key is finding a good instructor regardless of what set of regs you're training under. Assuming one is paying for their own training, I'd go to a Part 141 school (and then train under Part 61). When I worked at a flight school as a customer service rep in high school, the FAA would come by every now and then. But the impression I got is that they were doing little more than checking the "i" dotted and the "t" crossed in the paperwork we were required to maintain, with little oversight of the 'quality of instruction' the students were receiving. We weren't a self-examining authority, and really the only ones doing the 141 course were the international students (for obvious reasons), while most everyone else did the 61 course.
 
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