oh Delta

NovemberEcho

Dergs favorite member
We just don't know what the other discussion was about gates/hold short or cleared to cross.
we do when the 2 recordings are parsed together.
He was told to hold short in his initial taxi instructions and he read it back correctly. As he approached the runway she reiterated to hold short and asked his gate. He responded with the gate number only, then proceeded to taxi across the runway. At no point was he cleared to cross or did he read back cleared to cross.
 

Stone Cold

Well-Known Member
Different frequencies in JFK, they're unable to hear the other aircraft be cleared for takeoff.
takeoff clearance was on local control freq. Delta was on ground freq. different freqs and different controllers blended into same recording.
It sounds like an elevated, but same female voice, to me. She's talking to the rejecting takeoff a/c and also the holding short.

Maybe you're right. I've only operated there a dozen times now, but every time I've been there and held short (maybe 3 or 4 times), I was on tower freq. Y'all are definitely more experienced there than I am, so I'll defer to yous guys. ;)
 

NovemberEcho

Dergs favorite member
It sounds like an elevated, but same female voice, to me. She's talking to the rejecting takeoff a/c and also thebuilding short.

Maybe you're right. I've only operated there a dozen times now, but every time I've been there and held short (maybe 3 or 4 times), I was on tower freq. Y'all are definitely more experienced there than I am, so I'll defer to yous guys. ;)
If you’re there at night it’s probably combined up.
 

Stone Cold

Well-Known Member
we do when the 2 recordings are parsed together.
He was told to hold short in his initial taxi instructions and he read it back correctly. As he approached the runway she reiterated to hold short and asked his gate. He responded with the gate number only, then proceeded to taxi across the runway. At no point was he cleared to cross or did he read back cleared to cross.
Oh yeah, I forgot to add the other audio in there. Good point. Mea culpa.
 

Stone Cold

Well-Known Member
If you’re there at night it’s probably combined up.
I've actually never been there are night, as weird as that sounds. We normally get the longer runways, and without looking, I'm not sure which is which. I think most of the times we've been on inner runways, but I could have swore I've held short on tower freq. Maybe I'm confusing my airports.
 

NovemberEcho

Dergs favorite member
I've actually never been there are night, as weird as that sounds. We normally get the longer runways, and without looking, I'm not sure which is which. I think most of the times we've been on inner runways, but I could have swore I've held short on tower freq. Maybe I'm confusing my airports.
It’s possible. I think JFK has 2 local controllers (could be wrong, I’ve only toured it once). And positions are combined and decombined throughout the day depending on work load and staffing.
 
D

Deleted member 27505

Guest
Well, he didn't read it back, and she didn't reiterate that she needs the read back of the hold short instruction, so is that a "push"? Ultimately I think it is ATC's job to ensure they hear the proper read back, so I'd actually guess mostly on her, correct?


You'd be surprised how often planes arrive at airports like JFK,EWR,SFO,LAX,ect with no gate assigned yet haha. And you'd also be surprised how many airports ramp\ground don't know the gate at upon arrival often times as it does not show on their equipment.

The few times I saw reports about no-calls into the ramp resulting in a "golden tow bar"(pushback required to get the plane un-stuck) after they went nose-to-nose around the terminal, the pilots often said they were distracted by juggling between ground the the company radio. Especially when SFO was landing 19s, pilots would often land and have about 15 seconds between the ground hand off and ramp entry, and often hadn't been able to contact the company on ACARS and had no gate, so they'd just roll on in and sometimes it worked out, sometimes it did not. Yet, the reports always seemed to blame the pilots while I would argue that the communication with the company is to blame. I'd also suggested that since inbound aircraft always have priority anyway, that we pre-assign entry to pilots either via ACARS or by procedure and ask them just to check in when they can on entry to see if we need them to stop without forcing them to fumble frequencies at a bad time. But no one ever wanted any of my logic there, too much work vs pointing a finger and closing the case.

I agree 100% that the system is archaic given the workload for pilots and ATC at busy hub airports.
Meh, it doesn't really matter if she didn't challenge his failure to read back. It's a given that pilots need to read back hold-short and crossing instructions, and it was probably reiterated - yet again - and - painfully - toward the end of the ATIS. Is there ANYONE who does not know this?? Even if read-backs were NOT required, they'd still be a good way to ensure clarity and safety.

I've never been a big fan of making one's own problem someone else's. Redundancy, double checks, and help are almost always a good thing, don't get me wrong. But we're professional pilots, ferchisssakes. Are we really dependent upon ATC to be our backstop and convenient excuse?
 
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D

Deleted member 27505

Guest
The Internet says that Ovaltine used to be round.:ooh:
They meant it used to be 'round. As in 'round people's kitchens. As opposed to now when not so much. WTF is Ovaltine?
 
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Louie1975

Well-Known Member
takeoff clearance was on local control freq. Delta was on ground freq. different freqs and different controllers blended into same recording.
Good point. As a small aside they were on the 22L frequency. At JFK the 22L Local Controller will cross you on 22R, then have you change to Ground. And yea, you don’t hear 22R takeoffs. Unless they combine at night when it’s not busy but this wasn’t the case on this incident.
 
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Louie1975

Well-Known Member
If you’re there at night it’s probably combined up.
They were not combined up. The 22R controller cancelled Delta’s Takeoff Clearance. You do hear her yell ‘Delta’ and then she subsequently cancelled his clearance but that didn’t make LiveATC.
 

Louie1975

Well-Known Member
It sounds like an elevated, but same female voice, to me. She's talking to the rejecting takeoff a/c and also the holding short.

Maybe you're right. I've only operated there a dozen times now, but every time I've been there and held short (maybe 3 or 4 times), I was on tower freq. Y'all are definitely more experienced there than I am, so I'll defer to yous guys. ;)
2 different Controllers.
 

NovemberEcho

Dergs favorite member
They were not combined up. The 22R controller cancelled Delta’s Takeoff Clearance. You do hear her yell ‘Delta’ and then she subsequently cancelled his clearance but that didn’t make LiveATC.
I was talking about when @Stone Cold was there. Obviously they’re not combined if it was 2 different controllers on 2 dif freqs.
 
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