not positive Delta news...

Kristie

Mama Bear....
Staff member
some info just in...

_________________________________________
A couple of pilots on my "news" list have pointed out one of the
challenges facing pilots with the upcoming "re-engagement" of ALPA and
Delta negotiators. The sale and deferal of 19 aircraft announced yesterday,
mean lack of jobs and forward movement. You're talking about roughly 270
pilot jobs. Add the possibility that the company "might" sell another
10
737-800s, and there's another 140+ pilot jobs. Those 737-800 jobs would
affect pilots from roughly seniority numbers 2500 to 9000. Add to that the
fact that over 1300 pilots were furloughed, the pilots are already
contributing significantly to the company's "cost reductions". This would
seem to delay any near-term return of additional furloughed pilots. That
will be critical to the success of any "concessions" pilot may agree to.
If you add that lack of movement, the continued retirement of other
mainline aircraft, over 1000 pilots remaining on furlough after 1 Jan 04,
AND the company request for cash concessions, it becomes very substantial.
This will just add to the challenges ALPA and management will face in
upcoming negotiations. Of course that is apparent to many who have been
following the events of the past year.
As I responded to these pilots, it's always appropriate to make
input to your elected reps. Reaching an agreement that will be ratified by
the line pilots will not be easy.
__________________________________________________
then there's this article:

Earnings
Delta Air Narrows Loss, Sets Plan to Reduce Fleet
By EVAN PEREZ -- Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

Delta Air Lines, boosted by stronger summer travel, reported a sharply
narrower third-quarter loss and announced the sale of 11 aircraft to
further pare costs as it struggles to return to profitability.

The third-biggest U.S. carrier said it posted a loss of $164 million, or
$1.36 a share, in the third quarter, compared with a loss of $326 million,
or $2.67 a share, in the year-earlier quarter. The company previously said
it expected a loss of $200 million to $250 million for the latest quarter,
reflecting improved demand for travel. Still, Leo F. Mullin, Delta's
chairman and chief executive, said the company has big challenges ahead.

In an interview, Mr. Mullin said that with Delta's survival now secure, the
Atlanta company is focused on improving customer service and cutting its
costs to correspond with the lower-revenue environment he now believes will
continue at U.S. airlines for the foreseeable future.

Chief among those costs, he said, is Delta's pilot labor, which is markedly
more costly than at larger rivals AMR Corp.'s American Airlines and UAL
Corp.'s United Airlines. Mr. Mullin said he doesn't blame the pilots for
winning the industry's best-paying contract in 2001, just months before the
Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. But he contends that the compensation package
can't be sustained at current, sharply lower levels of passenger volume.

"Sept. 11 changed everything, and we have to be realistic that it's a new
world," Mr. Mullin said. "Getting relief on the pilot contract is really
important."

Delta's top brass will meet with the newly elected leaders of Delta's Air
Line Pilots Association unit on Friday in hopes of restarting wage-cut
talks, which stalled in July. Delta has asked its pilots for a 26.5% hourly
wage reduction and cancellation of a 4.5% pay raise next year, as well as a
second round of talks to change work rules. Last week, the company rolled
out plans for new work rules for its flight attendants, who aren't
unionized, which could save the company about $40 million a year.

Mr. Mullin said the company is pleased with its new low-fare Song unit,
which is serving to fend off low-fare competitors and as a testing ground
for new initiatives, such as onboard food sales, for the main Delta brand.

For the quarter, Delta said revenue increased slightly to $3.44 billion
from $3.42 billion a year earlier. The quarter's results included a gain of
$9 million, or eight cents a share, related to a debt exchange, and a
charge of $1 million, or a penny a share, because of derivatives and
hedging moves. Without these items, Delta said its loss for the quarter was
$172 million, or $1.43 a share, compared with a loss of $212 million, or
$1.75 a share, a year earlier.

Delta's load factor, or the percentage of seats filled, was 76.9%, up 2.6
percentage points from a year earlier. Even with some increase in demand
during the summer, overall traffic hasn't returned to the levels seen
before the war in Iraq.

Delta said it would save $500 million in capital expenditures through 2005
by selling to an unidentified third party 11 Boeing 737s that were
scheduled for delivery in 2005. Delta said it will record a charge of $26
million, after taxes, in the fourth quarter, related to the sale of the 11
aircraft. Delta also plans to defer until 2008 the delivery of eight
additional B737s scheduled for delivery in 2005.

At 4 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading Tuesday, Delta
shares were down 6.5%, or 96 cents, at $13.74.
________________________________

what I don't like is this:
[ QUOTE ]
"Sept. 11 changed everything, and we have to be realistic that it's a new
world," Mr. Mullin said. "Getting relief on the pilot contract is really important."

[/ QUOTE ]

my reaction - "so is giving back the money you stole to pay off upper management's retirements and raises Mr. Mullen"


and this: [ QUOTE ]
sharply lower levels of passenger volume.

[/ QUOTE ]

my reaction - "Doug can't even find a seat on delta from PHX to DFW to just get to work on any particular day - he has to take Am West or American (he may move to ATL base just cuz of that)... and that's considered low?"

#$%@* butthead!


anyone have any info on what the new "worker bee" rules are for the F/A's?????? I wonder if they're getting screwed royally!!

man - if i had the job of firing him - he'd be escorted out to Atlanta's worst city section minus his shoes and wallet... (I feel better now! haha
)

 

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
Nah, leave his wallet. Maybe then he will know what it's like to get screwed AND have his money taken....
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
Flight attendents voted NOT to vote for union representation.

Something about having to pay someone 1% to secure their benefits...

Umm, duh.
 

Tim

New Member
You guys are lucky. I work in ATL and have to listen to the bull get shot our way daily. We hear how we have to do more with less and all we can do is suck it up. ASA is having flight increases in Nov, Dec, and Jan. Somewhere correct me it I am wrong but more flights means more planes and more bags to handle. We are already short in the Bagpoints in ATL and now they expect us to handle these new flight with the same amount of people. Looks like Delta baggage problem is only going to get worse. ASA is the worst anyway at bag deals. But I am sure the analyst or manager who has never handle bags makes those decisions. So you know of course its going to work on paper but we know that in the "real" world its going to suck. But hey it looks good. I am done venting for now.
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
Lemme \"un-spin\" this a little...

It's all pretty simple. Leo the Ceo would always bash us about being organized labor when a non-union carrier like Southwest had lower operating costs.

One of his "keepers" conveniently reminded him that SWA is one of the most highly unionized carriers and their upcoming 737 rates + benefits are very good and may actually end up rivaling ours.

Oops, can't use the non-union SWA sob story any more. D'oh.

So suddenly, we're being compared against the current American rates, whose pilots caved because of a bankruptcy scare and got themselves completely hosed.

And the 'selling jets' thing. Sure, we're selling delivery positions on jets that aren't even ordered yet. Just fine because we've got a desert full of new mothballed jets that we're making lease payments on that would have been brought back online before the new/undeliverered/unmanufactured jets would even see the ramp.

Besides, Boeing refused to delay delivery of the jets because they're pissed that we're purchasing brand new Canadair RJ's but then pleading 'poor' to Boeing (A US company BTW).

Boeing told us to kiss their butt, as any other businessman would.

And our costs are still lower than a post-concessionary American Airlines. So lemme guess, the new American "baseline" (read: crackhead wages) rates are the 'standard'? So even though we still enjoy a vast cost advantage over AA, we need to offer a fat crutch to sponsor fare wars, fare sales and more management bonuses?

I'd like a $6,000,000-plus estate in Nantucket and a $35,000 per day salary (before bonuses, btw and including weekends!) as well, but I think I make a honest paycheck for an honest days work.

But our management tends to leave out that they're recieving a 10% raise over their 2003 rates next year after concessions.

Monkey see, monkey ain't gonna do.

Wall Street loves it because, even though they say how smart they are, they were all pushing Enron and Worldcom stock like it was the hot new thing, but suddenly are more than happy to spread cheesy propoganda that they're fed by management in order to secure their bonuses.

The part the wall street wannabe gurus leave out that for each department that wins cost savings, the department head sees a big fat bonus.

True story.

Don't believe the hype. Besides, once again, the wall street airline analysts are talking square out of their a**es, once again.
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
[ QUOTE ]
Something about having to pay someone 1% to secure their benefits...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it when comes to union dues no one ever wants to pay dues (biggest excuse as to not form or join a union) yet as soon as they're off work they head out to a restaurant, a bar whatever and blow - on that one meal, round of drinks, etc - what their dues would have been for that pay period.

It's called "cheap job insurance" folks.

You can pay $30 in dues each month or after you're fired go hire a lawyer at $300 an hour to try and get your job back, or severence pay, or back vacation, etc.

If a union does nothing else it, at least, makes it a little harder to get fired.
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
What they'd generally do is offer the flight attendants parallel benefits to whatever we negotiated in terms of hotels, some work rules and medical benefits.

So it was often heard, "Why don't ya'll negotiate XYZ in ya'lls next contract so we can get that"

My answer was usually, "Well, why don't you negotiate your own contract?"

"Naw, unions are EVIL, why should I pay somebody money when I already get it for free?"

And then a few years later, almost overnight, the work rules changed, medical benefits changed and now they're scrambling, ferrociously bitter and angry about the companies ability to do such uncontested.

One asked me last month about what I thought about the changes to sick leave and was almost in tears when I said, "Umm, WHAT changes to sick leave? There's been no contractural change".
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
[ QUOTE ]
"Naw, unions are EVIL, why should I pay somebody money when I already get it for free?"

[/ QUOTE ]

If they're so evil why, then, can you (not you Doug, the other "you:
) live with yourself - seeing as you reap the benefits of the union negotiations? So they're evil but you'll "live" with 'em so long as they're helping your non-union supporting, non-dues paying leeching self.


I hate that line of thinking. It's the same crap when non-union pilots say "what has ALPA done for me?" Well a$$h@le ... take a look at the FARs sometime.

Unions aren't perfect. They are a necessary "evil." But damnit if ALPA closed up shop tonight pilots would be paid minimum wage by Monday - if not sooner. Guaranteed.

Why is it sooooo hard to get people to protect themselves?
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
Because Corporate America (you know, the guys that are hell bent on sending us back to serfdom where there's a few monied "Dukes" and the rest of us pay tribute to the various fifedoms) has led a successful campaign to denegrate worker's ability to collectively bargain.

You know, instead of saying that a group of employees have banded together to organize themselves to get better working conditions, it was then called:

Organized Labor which sounded an awful lot like Organized Crime which was the big boogyman pre-WW2.

Lots of stories planted about "Oh yeah, with a union, you can't fire the lazy people or the ones that are bad..." Umm, on what planet does this happen on?
I'm still looking for that example.

The hilarious thing is that one of my friends was Mr. "Unions are evil and destroying our country" is now one of the biggest proponents of collective bargaining.

People in upper management have binding contracts, athletes have binding contracts, and I believe the average Joe, the cat who helped build this nation and is absolutely married to it should have the ability to negotiate a binding contract.
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
[ QUOTE ]
People in upper management have binding contracts, athletes have binding contracts, and I believe the average Joe, the cat who helped build this nation and is absolutely married to it should have the ability to negotiate a binding contract.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ah but when more than one person gets together to even out the power imbalance those in power start screaming "communism" or some other such horsesh*t.

I just can't, no I refuse, to believe that people are so stupid that they actually believe that the boss is really willing to pay a fair wage when it's his job to pay as little for that work as possible. Maybe I'm the dumb one, I dunno, but I sure don't want my livelihood entrusted to someone whose responsibility to the company mandates he screw me over as much as he legally can. Call me silly.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
.

I just can't, no I refuse, to believe that people are so stupid that they actually believe that the boss is really willing to pay a fair wage when it's his job to pay as little for that work as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe the government is here to help us.

And that the military sees to it that I'm paid what I feel I'm worth.
 

Kristie

Mama Bear....
Staff member
uhhh... before i go off on that one, you are joking/being sarcastic correct??? just wanted to make sure... couldn't really tell....
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
uhhh... before i go off on that one, you are joking/being sarcastic correct??? just wanted to make sure... couldn't really tell....


[/ QUOTE ]

Complete and utter sarcasm. If I were serious, kill me now.
 

Kristie

Mama Bear....
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
Complete and utter sarcasm. If I were serious, kill me now.


[/ QUOTE ]

I was gonna say....

Whew!!
 

MedFlyer

New Member
Re: Lemme \"un-spin\" this a little...

[ QUOTE ]
One of his "keepers" conveniently reminded him that SWA is one of the most highly unionized carriers and their upcoming 737 rates + benefits are very good and may actually end up rivaling ours.

Oops, can't use the non-union SWA sob story any more. D'oh.

[/ QUOTE ]

When DL pilots are as productive and efficient as WN pilots, then you can make all the comparisons you want. Until then, it's a waste of time...unless you'd like DL to get rid of all those 757s, 767's and 777's which pay the big bucks.


[ QUOTE ]
And the 'selling jets' thing. Sure, we're selling delivery positions on jets that aren't even ordered yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

False. The delivery positions that DL is selling are planes that DL had on firm order.

[ QUOTE ]
Just fine because we've got a desert full of new mothballed jets that we're making lease payments on that would have been brought back online before the new/undeliverered/unmanufactured jets would even see the ramp.

[/ QUOTE ]

True and false. Yes DL has a desert full of planes, but they are hardly new. The planes DL has in the desert are MD88's, 732's and 762's....not exactly the newest in the bunch. Not to mention, these planes are far from the most fuel efficient. Let's see what happens when a DL 732 goes against an FL 717 which plane will cost substantially more (even if labor costs were equal which they clearly are not)?

[ QUOTE ]
Besides, Boeing refused to delay delivery of the jets because they're pissed that we're purchasing brand new Canadair RJ's but then pleading 'poor' to Boeing (A US company BTW).

Boeing told us to kiss their butt, as any other businessman would.

[/ QUOTE ]

False. DL is pissed at Boeing for treating DL so poorly over the past few years. Boeing is charging DL substantially more for planes while giving DL's biggest competitor, Airtran, substantial discounting and financing.

[ QUOTE ]
And our costs are still lower than a post-concessionary American Airlines. So lemme guess, the new American "baseline" (read: crackhead wages) rates are the 'standard'? So even though we still enjoy a vast cost advantage over AA, we need to offer a fat crutch to sponsor fare wars, fare sales and more management bonuses?

[/ QUOTE ]

By time all of AA's concessions are in place, AA will have lower costs than DL (though not by much). The numbers you are quoting are out of date and worst of all they come from a Wall St analyst....the same guys you say are full of sh*t. The only reason DL's costs are as low as they are is because the rest of the employees have taken concessions and are vastly more productive. If all DL employees had "industry leading" contracts like the DL pilots, then DL would easily have the highest costs in the industry. Basically, the other employees subsidize the pilots.

I don't expect the DL pilots to give concessions. A "contract is a contract" as the saying goes. Trust me, DL's low-fare competitors look forward to the DL pilots keeping their current contract....it makes life so much easier when DL has a cost structure that isn't competitive.
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
Re: Lemme \"un-spin\" this a little...

[ QUOTE ]
When DL pilots are as productive and efficient as WN pilots, then you can make all the comparisons you want. Until then, it's a waste of time...unless you'd like DL to get rid of all those 757s, 767's and 777's which pay the big bucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Different route structure entirely. Almost apples and oranges. I guess if we only served say 30% of the US market, we could cherry pick routes and tighten up our 'efficiency'. Plus, dropping those 22 hour layovers overseas, having three pilots fly transatlantic, etc.

Two entirely different operations.


[ QUOTE ]
False. The delivery positions that DL is selling are planes that DL had on firm order.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once again, big deal. Lots o' jets in the desert.

[ QUOTE ]
Let's see what happens when a DL 732 goes against an FL 717 which plane will cost substantially more (even if labor costs were equal which they clearly are not)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Short haul on a 100-seat jet which is already paid for... Check out the average stage length of the 737-200.

[ QUOTE ]
False. DL is pissed at Boeing for treating DL so poorly over the past few years. Boeing is charging DL substantially more for planes while giving DL's biggest competitor, Airtran, substantial discounting and financing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Falsing your false. Straight from "a horses mouth" over at Boeing.

[ QUOTE ]
By time all of AA's concessions are in place, AA will have lower costs than DL (though not by much). The numbers you are quoting are out of date and worst of all they come from a Wall St analyst

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually no, they're fresh as of last week after our analysts re-ran the numbers and had them cross checked by an independent.

In fact, a supposed "low cost" carrier isn't going to say "Yeah! Keep our wages low!" if you look at the history of collective bargaining. Check out SWA's projected 737 rates at the end of their contract.

Are you going to call me a chump and debate me about the MD-88 autopilot next?
 

n77j

Well-Known Member
Re: Lemme \"un-spin\" this a little...

[ QUOTE ]
The only reason DL's costs are as low as they are is because the rest of the employees have taken concessions and are vastly more productive. If all DL employees had "industry leading" contracts like the DL pilots, then DL would easily have the highest costs in the industry. Basically, the other employees subsidize the pilots. [ QUOTE ]
.


........and you forgot the executives
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
[ QUOTE ]
I believe the government is here to help us.

And that the military sees to it that I'm paid what I feel I'm worth.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah but you also get some pretty snazzy business cards, so it all works out in the end.


 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
Speaking of snazzy business cards, I watched a captain write a check during a layover and his check read:

"Captain and Mrs. (firstname) (secondname)"

Pretty proud, eh?
 

Tim

New Member
Sound like a few of the guys I have ran into in ATL. Captains I mean. The rumor at during last contract talks were the pilots wanted there own bus to ride in so they would have to ride with guys who smell from sweating all day loading there planes. Not sure if thats true but from some it wouldnt suprise me.
 
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