New pipers

rausda27

Well-Known Member
I have noticed a bunch of pipers at the factory with PA "N" numbers but no Pan Am logos on the tail.. Did Pan AM cancel orders? Does this mean that Piper will be selling airplanes thta were intended for Pan Am to anyone who wants a PA N number, and if so can they call in Pan Am 123 when flying on FPR or VRB? Just wondering if this is an indication of PAn AM financial situation, I mean there are like 6 airplanes just sitting at Piper.....
 

TheFlyingTurkey

Fetus Worshiper
I was at Piper on Friday for the factory tour, and I saw about 5-6 airplanes with Pan Am colors and Papa Alpha tail numbers. From what I have heard, these airplanes were ordered several months ago, but were not delivered because Pan Am's student enrollment was down. So there were plenty of planes to go around, and they didn't need them. But Pan Am still intends to take delivery of them, so Piper has kept them around. When the Chinese students show up next February, I think Pan Am will probably take delivery of a few of the airplanes.

The Turk.
 

chunk75

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Does this mean that Piper will be selling airplanes thta were intended for Pan Am to anyone who wants a PA N number, and if so can they call in Pan Am 123 when flying on FPR or VRB?

[/ QUOTE ]

FYI...they wouldn't be able to do that, but I'm pretty sure you were joking.

Chunk

PS--Note to Pan Am guys....please be consistent with your callsign. It gets a bit confusing when you use the N number on one call and the Pan Am flight number on another call. Heard that today...student was using Pan Am XXX and the CFI would pop in every third call or so and use the N-number. VRB tower asked her to be consistent and the CFI (female)'s response was "It's all the same."

Chunk
 

pure_IMC

New Member
Well theres no excuse for the instructor, but we were all student pilots at one time and made mistates. Im sure this was a pre private. When I was a pre-private, I once called FPR tower- Panam Tower! The controller was like "I wasn't aware that Pan am had bought us." SOOOOOO SORRY!
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
I've called PRC tower "Riddle Tower" on a zillion occasions.

Mostly, we'd use the "Riddle 123" callsign when we were VFR, but used N123ER whenever we had an open VFR/IFR flight plan.
 

carlos

Well-Known Member
I'm still saying "Cessna Tower", "Cessna Ground", "Two-Five-Right" (There's a 21R and 21L but just one 25 at my airport!), among other misstatements. They haven't kidded me about it, yet, probably since I'm still a low-time student and they know what I meant. Hey, if we were perfect, then we wouldn't be students!
 
G

Guest

Guest
How funny! There are approaches into williams gateway that are for the center runway (30c on the approach plate) often you hear people reporting "inbound on the ils 30 charlie".

I am for changing the tale numbers for pa to other letters. I think we get "special treatment" sometimes from phoenix controllers who get annoyed with all the papa alphas in their arispace making them work too hard. plus being student pilots we screw up a lot. but you didn't hear that from me.
 

cime_sp

Well-Known Member
Not to mention redio calls in the practice areas!!! I almost got speared by a Pan Am Seminole the other day in area Hotel. After making numerous calls to state my position to them, the pilot finally responded when I very FIRMLY stated "PAN AM SEMINOLE, TRAFFIC AT YOUR 1 O'CLOCK 1 MILE!!!!!!" After making no attempt to give way (I had right of way) The pilot said "we had you in sight we were monitoring Miami Center".....hello, you do have 2 radios correct. And if you had me in sight there was NO reason to cut it that close.
 

VFT99

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
After making no attempt to give way (I had right of way)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you misunderstand the concept of see and avoid, you are supposed to "see and avoid" not plow on into another airplane expecting it to turn away just because you had the right of way . It's a breathtakingly bad idea to wait until a mile away before you do anything. In the practice area no-one has the right of way, you all see and avoid each other. I can just imagine you spiralling in, screaming "but I had the right of way!!!!".
Get your CFI to run over this for you.
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
There's a good point for discussion.

I'm starting my 16th year of flying and the policy I always keep is no matter who has the right of way, always presume that the other guy doesn't understand the rule and doesn't see you. Then do what it takes to avoid the traffic.

I'd rather give up a visual approach or take evasive action when I have the right of way, rather than have a midair collision.
 

Tired

New Member
Wow, you must have some super-duper eyes to tell that an aircraft is a Pan Am Seminole at one mile, especially since if that aircraft had you at his one o'clock you'd be looking right at the nose of the thing. When I see another aircraft coming the other way I just turn a little bit instead of being a little practice area nazi. It's not like you own your own little space of airspace in the practice area.

I've flown for three different schools in the Phoenix area, and all aircraft get "special treatment" from the controllers. Don't get me started on Scottsdale tower controllers.
 

cime_sp

Well-Known Member
Yes I understand the see and avoid concept and I did maneuver to to avoid the seminole....I'm not that ignorant.

The point here is that they should have been a lot more careful going through a very active practice area at 135 knots and 3000 feet. Even if on a IFR flight plan it is their duty to see and avoid other traffic when in VFR conditions.

I would just like to see more care taken in the practice areas by all schools involved...FSI, PanAM, Riddle, FIT, etc...There are times when things get way too close out there.
 

ready2fly

Well-Known Member
I have a question here (okay, and a gripe):

Everything I read for my private said that if you are confronted with an approaching plane (not moving, but getting larger in your windshield) BOTH planes are to make a turn to the RIGHT.

However, EVERY single time this happened, my former CFI would say "turn LEFT!!"

I thought maybe this guy didn't know left from right, but then once, as he had the controls when I was just coming out from under the hood, there was an oncoming plane. He (my former CFI) jerked the plane left until we were almost abeam the other plane, then he TURNED TOWARD IT to get the tail number, then turned left again to continue the flight.

PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, but you're supposed to turn RIGHT - correct?
 

cime_sp

Well-Known Member
Yes you are supposed to turn right if approaching head on. BUT....if it is safer to turn left, by all means go left!
 
G

Guest

Guest
Yeah scottsdale gave me a lecture during an IR stagecheck. something about pan am asking for circle to land instead of touch an go. valid point but number one, i was on a stagecheck and wanted him to f*** off for the moment and two he took up a lot of radio time to tell me this which I thought was kind of rediculous.
 

Tired

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
The point here is that they should have been a lot more careful going through a very active practice area at 135 knots and 3000 feet. Even if on a IFR flight plan it is their duty to see and avoid other traffic when in VFR conditions.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know they weren't being careful? Since they were IFR I'm sure the controller called you to him as traffic, and you even said that the other aircraft had you in sight. Since neither you nor I were aboard the other aircraft we aren't in a position to say if an operation is safe or not. I'm still trying to figure out how you determined to make, model, and school the aircraft belonged to when it was a mile away comming at you. My point is that complaining on a message board about practice area traffic is pretty weak. Calling out your position in the practice area is a curtosey, and doesn't improve safety that much. Even with calling out your position, there will be plenty of traffic not on freq that you have to avoid.
 

chunk75

Well-Known Member
Exactly the reason that the practice areas west of Vero, Ft.Pierce, and Melbourne need to be alert areas.

Chunk
 

pure_IMC

New Member
Ill agree with you on that one chunk. Although im sure the faa/orl fsdo are aware of the extensive flight training here, has anyone shot off a letter to them. I wonder what the requirements for establishing an alert area.
 

pavelump

Well-Known Member
back to silly radio calls... While I was doing my private training at Midway in Chicago, I contacted clearance delivery to give them my requested heading, etc. etc. When he replied back to me he said, "Cessna 787, cleared 230, stay at or below 2000ft. while in Charlie airspace. Contact ground when you are ready to push back." I had to resist the urge to tell ground that I was ready to push back the 152!


Dave
 
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