Multi-Engine Time?

Skinnah

Well-Known Member
Some Questions:

Once you have a PPL can you obtain your MEL and get all of your ratings in a multi-engine plane?
(for the purpose of multi hour building.)

Once you have your PPL is all flight time, when going for other ratings, considered PIC even with an instructor?

thanks.
junior
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
Eagle's right, but since you asked for more... You can do all of your training in a multiengine airplane theoretically. Realisitically, I'd say forget about even thinking about doing your initial private pilots license in a multi. While it is possible as far as the FAA is concerned, the insurance company would have quite a chuckle at that application. Besides that, it would probably be an E-ticket to the grave.

Once you have your PPL, yes, you can log all other time (even dual received) as PIC....IF you are rated in cat/class.
 

CapnJim

Well-Known Member
Re: Multi-Engne Time?

When I attended ATP, almost all the flight training was done in multi-engine aircraft. Almost all my ratings (Private Multi, Instrument, Commercial Multi, CFI Initial, CFII) were done in multi-engine aircraft, so yeah, you can definitely get all your ratings in multi-engine birds to build multi time. In fact, the only single-engine work I did was to add Commercial Single and CFI single to my tickets.

Once you have your PPL, you can log all flight time as PIC in the aircraft you are rated for, provided you are the sole manipulator of the controls. For example, if you get your PPL single and then start work on your instrument ticket (in a single), you will be logging the instrument training time as PIC AND Dual Recieved. However, if you start on your Multi-Private add on, you can't log PIC in the multi's till you pass the Multi Private checkide.
 

mrivc211

Well-Known Member
Re: Multi-Engne Time?

Shiit, can you CFI's out there imagine trying to let a student pilot solo in a twin with 30-40 hours? Yikes!
 

CapnJim

Well-Known Member
Re: Multi-Engne Time?

Scary stuff! Definitely a quick way to make a multi-engine shaped hole in the ground.
I was glad to have a multi-engine sim to practice, practice, practice engine outs, Vmc, single engine approach and landing, etc. etc.
 

Skinnah

Well-Known Member
Re: Multi-Engne Time?

Thanks for your answers.
I'm not planning on doing my PPL in a ME aircraft as I'm only a few lessons away from my checkride. I'm thinking about going for my MEL rating next and then Instrument, Commercial, Etc.... but all in a ME plane.

So you don't recommend doing it this way?
How is it that ATP can go about it this way(safely)?
What would you recommend?

I appreciate all your answers, thank you very much.
junior
 

ERAU_Intern

New Member
Because ATP trains their students from the "ground up" to fly with a multi-engine mentality. It takes someone who is more on the ball for sure. But in the end, if the instructor is up to it, you will come out a much better multi-engine pilot. After all, experience is everything....right? Dude, if you can afford to train in a multi for the rest of your ratings, GO FOR IT! God I wish I had the money to do that. I would make the journey to an airline job much shorter. Good luck!
 

CapnJim

Well-Known Member
Re: Multi-Engne Time?

If you want to get your Private ME next, by all means go for it. I would check out ATP though; they may be able to save you some money on all the multi-engine time since thier ACPP program is exactly what you want to do. You need your PPL, 85 hours TT and 25 hours XC PIC (not XC total) to start.
ATP will give you about 5 hours in the sim and 6 hours in the plane for the multi engine transition. After that it's about 50 hours of sim and 50 hours of instrument training and an insurance ride before they let you go off with one of thier planes by yourself (read:with a saftey pilot). So they are safe and effective. I had a pretty good experience with them if you can't tell!
 

Bluffster

New Member
Re: Multi-Engne Time?

I'm training privates in Multi at the moment. Haven't yet trained a zero-time multi student, but am working with a few who have around 50 hours total time before getting their private in a twin. It's very possible and doesn't require particularly "gifted" students.

However, to get them done in minimal time requires one of the more docile light twins typically used for training like a Seminole (I'm not trying to insult anyone's Seminole ego here. It's just an example).

Starting someone from zero time in a twin would probably only concern me in two cases: 1) A twin with no right-side brakes. 2) When doing engine failures during the takeoff roll. "Eek! Use rudder not brake!"

If you have the money, it makes sense to start in multi early. On the other hand, I didn't start in twins until after the commercial ticket and am doing just fine.
 

Skinnah

Well-Known Member
Re: Multi-Engne Time?

ERAU Intern: of course I would have to take out a loan (like most of us) to do this kind of training but I just figure that it would be worth it in the long run.

As for ATP, I have contemplated this idea for quite some time now. Just a few quesion about their program:

ATP- quotes $32,000 for ACPP
How many actual PIC hours do you finish with?
How many hours Safety Pilot do you finish with?
How many Sim hours do you finish with?
How many XC?

I punched some numbers and here is what I got. If I stay and train with my FBO, who should be aquiring a ME FTD in the near future (by the time I finish my PPL).
All figures include plane(ME), instructor, ground, supplies, and FTD.

ME rating- 12 hrs actual, 50hrsFTD, $5290
Insrument- 35 hrs actual, 15 hrs FTD, $8925
Commercial ME- 27 hrs $5101
CFI- 15 hrs $3250
CFII- 8 hrs actual, 3 hrs FTD, $2160
MEI- 12 hrs $2790
CFI single- ?
Single Enginge Commercial-?

totals= 109 actual, 68 FTD, $27,516

now, are these accurate estimates or not even close?
How much is the average for CFI SEL, and Commercial SEL?
Also, my school requires you always have a flight instructor with you in a ME plane (well that is an insurance company policy). how do you log solo time like this? maybe I'm wrong.

anyone care to add some feedback, much appreciated.
Thanks all, I respect all feedback.
Junior
 

mrivc211

Well-Known Member
Re: Multi-Engne Time?

About the solo time, thats what I was wondering because most places require 500 hours or so to fly by yourself in most twins and 10 hours make and model.
 

CapnJim

Well-Known Member
Re: Multi-Engne Time?

When you're done at ATP you'll get 200 hours total: 140 multi, 10 single, and 50 sim. Of the 140 Multi about 125 is XC, 3 is Turbine in the Citation, and the rest is training.

As for solo operations, there was always either an instructor or a saftey pilot in the right (or left) seat. I've never heard of them letting any of the students solo in the Seminoles.

Bluffster: I agree about the Seminole. As far as multi-engine birds go, they don't get much more docile: counter-rotating props, 180hp a side, T-tail, etc. Makes flying with one engine inop a lot easier to deal with, which is paramount in a training situation. My hat's off to the guys who trained in Barons and the like, but I sure as heck wouldn't want to instruct new students in them.
 

davetheflyer

New Member
Re: Multi-Engne Time?

[ QUOTE ]
Shiit, can you CFI's out there imagine trying to let a student pilot solo in a twin with 30-40 hours? Yikes!

[/ QUOTE ]

Rumored to be true:

There was once a gentleman who wanted to fly, but was deathly afraid of single-engine airplanes. He couldn't find a twin to rent as a student pilot, so he finally bought a Cessna 337 (Skymaster, Mixmaster, Pushme-pullyou) for his training. This is a centerline thrust aircraft so he wouldn't have to deal with the problems of adverse single-engine handling. He found a CFI and started training. Eventually, he soloed and went on his first solo x-c.

At the towered airport that was his destination, things were busy. The controller was trying to keep up with all the traffic in the pattern when he called our hero:

ATC: Cessna 12345, are you the Skymaster?

Pilot: No sir, I'm a student pilot!


 

mastermags

Well-Known Member *giggity*
So you airline guys... when did yall build the bulk of your multi engine time (pre airline of course).
 

Buzo

Well-Known Member
I had 42 hours when I got hired. Most of that time was getting the rating, 15 hours of PIC, and my MEI and CFII.
 

Mr_Creepy

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
So you airline guys... when did yall build the bulk of your multi engine time (pre airline of course).

[/ QUOTE ]

Got my MEI and began teaching in a Piper Geronimo (a long nosed Apache.)

Once I hit 500 ME I began doig a lot of charter.

And yeah, it took a lot of time, but the education was invaluable.
 

Eagle

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
So you airline guys... when did yall build the bulk of your multi engine time (pre airline of course).

[/ QUOTE ]

I am a bad example and an exception to the rule, I got my first job flying jets with 30 or so hours ME time.

Networking.. (damn there is that word again)
 
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