MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
Two things.

First, the people who do interviews are pilots. Pilots are not lawyers. Pilots don't commonly understand subtlety, even when it's not so subtle.

Second, one of my Dad's favorite phrases is, "Being right can get you killed."

An interview isn't the time for litigation.
Leaving aside the fact that the rules have had 40 years of consistent FAA interpretation and are actually pretty readable plain English, no, of course an interview (or checkride) is not the time for arguments about reading comprehension. But trying to imagine all the different ways different interviewers might not know the rules and trying to write for all of them in a logbook doesn't strike me as a sound strategy.

There's a difference between data and presentation. The "FAA columns" and any extras one might want to add, like "Part 1 PIC" are data. What an employer wants to see for real experience for the job is presentation.

So far, anyway, I haven't heard of anyone dying based on what they wrote in their logbook.
 
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MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
I keep a separate column in my logbook with for Part 1 (aircraft commander) PIC and use that on applications. If asked about any of my other PIC time, I'm happy to explain it.
We talk so much about logging PIC when not acting as PIC as a difficult concept, but I think the flip side is more difficult - there are a few situations in which one acting as PIC is not authorized to log it. But it's another good reason to toss in that separate column. Same goes for separate logging of cross country time to meet basic certificate and rating requirements vs Part 135 minimums.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
"Logging for the airlines" question.

You are a commercial/multi pilot. You had five hours of dual to get the rating in the Seminole. That's clearly not PIC time under any definition. After earning the rating, the insurance (either FBO minimums or your own insurer) required 20 total hours of dual (15 in addition to your pre-rating training) before you took the airplane solo. How "should" one log those 15 hours?
 

Autothrust Blue

"Duuuuuude."
"Logging for the airlines" question.

You are a commercial/multi pilot. You had five hours of dual to get the rating in the Seminole. That's clearly not PIC time under any definition. After earning the rating, the insurance (either FBO minimums or your own insurer) required 20 total hours of dual (15 in addition to your pre-rating training) before you took the airplane solo. How "should" one log those 15 hours?
“Oh my god, who the hell cares? Let’s bang out some TMAAT, a CRM scenario and let’s go have lunch.”

serious answer:

OO and MQ were the only ones who really cared and Part 1 definitions were what they wanted.

VX, DL (twice) and NK looked at the books and went “mhm you’re an airline pilot, k.”
 

milleR

Well-Known Member
From an employers perspective.... if I were interviewing you and I reviewed your logbook you better believe that I’m going to ask about this PIC you are logging. Moreover if you use it to qualify for an interview you might find yourself being shown the door because you are alleging, on paper, that your current employer has hired you to operate the aircraft as a PIC which unless I’m mistaken... you have not. Be very careful if you decide to log the time for the purposes of applications/resumes... and be ready to defend your decision to log the time in a potential interview situation.
“I see you have 374 hours PIC in a King Air 90, but your resume doesn’t show you as a qualified captain at Best Charters Ltd. where you’ve listed that airframe as a crew member. Can you tell me about that?”

“Well, you see, I was a required crew member under part 135 FAR’s, had passed a SIC checkride and was the sole manipulator of the flight controls during those legs so I was legally able to log that time as pilot in command”

“Ok, I understand that, but you were never actually the Pilot In Command of the flight”

“Well ... per the regs, I was, while flying the plane ...”

“Thanks, we’ll be in touch”
"Logging for the airlines" question.

You are a commercial/multi pilot. You had five hours of dual to get the rating in the Seminole. That's clearly not PIC time under any definition. After earning the rating, the insurance (either FBO minimums or your own insurer) required 20 total hours of dual (15 in addition to your pre-rating training) before you took the airplane solo. How "should" one log those 15 hours?
Assuming sole manipulator of the flight controls and under part 91 rules, I don’t see any issue logging PIC when flying with an instructor for insurance reasons. The original question though, was logging sole manipulator PIC while operating under Part 135. I wonder how Cape Air handles that with SIC’s, I don’t remember what the few FO’s I flew with logged and it may have changed in the last 10 years.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
Assuming sole manipulator of the flight controls and under part 91 rules, I don’t see any issue logging PIC when flying with an instructor for insurance reasons. The original question though, was logging sole manipulator PIC while operating under Part 135. I wonder how Cape Air handles that with SIC’s, I don’t remember what the few FO’s I flew with logged and it may have changed in the last 10 years.
Thank you. Of course, there aren't any logging rules under Part 91, Part 135 or Part 121. They are all in Part 61 dealing with basic pilot certification and currency. So I'm getting it's okay to log as the rules say, except when it isn't.

“Oh my god, who the hell cares? Let’s bang out some TMAAT, a CRM scenario and let’s go have lunch.”
Agreed. Those are the issues I, as a passenger, want to know were discussed. My question is an attempt to clarify what was meant by those who do care.
 

milleR

Well-Known Member
Thank you. Of course, there aren't any logging rules under Part 91, Part 135 or Part 121. They are all in Part 61 dealing with basic pilot certification and currency. So I'm getting it's okay to log as the rules say, except when it isn't.
I remember being told by a captain, in a 121 operation, “you’re type rated in the plane, you’re flying it, log it as PIC!” (I didn’t)

This is internet debate material of legend.
 

SteveC

Really?
Staff member
“I see you have 374 hours PIC in a King Air 90, but your resume doesn’t show you as a qualified captain at Best Charters Ltd. where you’ve listed that airframe as a crew member. Can you tell me about that?”
“Well, sir, that time is actually in my logbook in a seperate column labeled ‘61 PIC’. That way when you ask me how much PIC time I have, and we discuss which definition of PIC that you are referencing, I can give you accurate data.”
 

nibake

Powder hound
“Well, sir, that time is actually in my logbook in a seperate column labeled ‘61 PIC’. That way when you ask me how much PIC time I have, and we discuss which definition of PIC that you are referencing, I can give you accurate data.”
That wasn't so painful!
 

milleR

Well-Known Member
“Well, sir, that time is actually in my logbook in a seperate column labeled ‘61 PIC’. That way when you ask me how much PIC time I have, and we discuss which definition of PIC that you are referencing, I can give you accurate data.”
That’s perfectly fine, but I’ve yet to see an employment application that asks which FAR’s you’ve logged PIC under besides the usual 135/121.

For example, if a Southwest FO decides to apply for a contract job in Asia flying 737’s that requires 1000 hours PIC, do you think his part 61 logged time qualifies them for that job?

I think this all boils down not to what you can or cannot log or present legally, but how it’s going to look to a potential employer. In my opinion only, representing your flight time as pilot in command while operating under flight rules where you’ve not been given the privelages or responsibilities of PIC is a misrepresentation.
 

Roger Roger

Paid to sleep, fly for fun
I know that making the applicant play guessing games used to be part of the fun for airlines, but the applications I’ve seen lately have been very clear about what they want to see.
 

msmspilot

Well-Known Member
Assuming sole manipulator of the flight controls and under part 91 rules, I don’t see any issue logging PIC when flying with an instructor for insurance reasons. The original question though, was logging sole manipulator PIC while operating under Part 135. I wonder how Cape Air handles that with SIC’s, I don’t remember what the few FO’s I flew with logged and it may have changed in the last 10 years.
So 135 actually requires a two person crew when flying passengers under IFR.

However, there's an exemption you can get, if you have fewer than 10 passenger seats, which allows you to use a (iirc) 3 axis autopilot in lieu of a first officer. Cape Air has that exemption.

Since an FO is required under the part of the regulations they operate under, any time an FO is in the seat, they can log SIC time. When I was there the FAA came out with an interpretation that on those legs the autopilot couldn't be used if the FO wanted to log the time. I'm sure that's followed to the letter. :)
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
That’s perfectly fine, but I’ve yet to see an employment application that asks which FAR’s you’ve logged PIC under besides the usual 135/121.
The only FARs which deal with logging flight time are in Part 61. If the questions is "which FAR’s you’ve logged PIC under" the only real answer answer is 61.51. There are no Part 1 or Part 135 or 121 logging rules. There may be employer rules, but those aren't FAR rules. That's basic.
For example, if a Southwest FO decides to apply for a contract job in Asia flying 737’s that requires 1000 hours PIC, do you think his part 61 logged time qualifies them for that job?

I think this all boils down not to what you can or cannot log or present legally, but how it’s going to look to a potential employer. In my opinion only, representing your flight time as pilot in command while operating under flight rules where you’ve not been given the privelages or responsibilities of PIC is a misrepresentation.
That's the problem in a nutshell. You don't know. Are they asking whether you meet the minimum regulatory requirements for the job? That's PIC flight time as defined by regulation. Or are they asking for what your government authorized as PIC flight time? Again that's Part 61. Or are they asking whether you have 1,000 hours of command responsibility, which may or may not be loggable flight time from a regulatory standpoint (not all in command flight time is loggable)? Or are they asking whether you meet some standard they define in the application or job description (which is the best solution - tell me what you want and I'll give you what you want)? Or are they using some undefined standard and asking you to guess at the answer?

Here's an example I've heard a number of times - logging PIC as a safety pilot in a Cessna 152. In your opinion, should it be included in your hypothetical application? It is not only Part 61 PIC time, but it is also, by definition, Part 1 PIC time.

But lets move from academic to practical. If your answer to the above questions is, "they are asking me to guess," by all means use the most restrictive answer you can come up with if you meet the requirements and don't see a downside to putting in less time than you might be able to if you did know what they wanted.
 

Autothrust Blue

"Duuuuuude."
Since an FO is required under the part of the regulations they operate under, any time an FO is in the seat, they can log SIC time. When I was there the FAA came out with an interpretation that on those legs the autopilot couldn't be used if the FO wanted to log the time. I'm sure that's followed to the letter. :)
LOL
 

CFI A&P

Exploring the world one toilet at a time.
Guess I prefer the KISS principle here. If you're not soley responsible for the aircraft, nor the principle and final decision maker of/for that aircraft during the time it's being operated, than you're not the PIC and can't/shouldn't be logging it as PIC time during 135/121 operations. How you and your buddy log flying around the grass strip in a single engine Cessna is up to you. 135/121 ops becomes a clear case of who's PIC vs SIC vs nobody.

Now if you're the type to spent endless hours searching the FAR's looking for what the meaning of is is in search of a loophole to log PIC, even though you know you weren't the acting or the assigned PIC of the flight, I would harshly question and scrutinize logging it as such if I were interviewing you. In my opionion, regardless of some loophole, you're either the PIC, SIC or in the "dual given/received" column. Shouldn't be a grey area...
Personally I enjoy it when someone is savvy on the regs, but when it comes to logging - if you don't know whether or not you're the PIC or SIC, then you're just a passenger.
 

nibake

Powder hound
So 135 actually requires a two person crew when flying passengers under IFR.

However, there's an exemption you can get, if you have fewer than 10 passenger seats, which allows you to use a (iirc) 3 axis autopilot in lieu of a first officer. Cape Air has that exemption.

Since an FO is required under the part of the regulations they operate under, any time an FO is in the seat, they can log SIC time. When I was there the FAA came out with an interpretation that on those legs the autopilot couldn't be used if the FO wanted to log the time. I'm sure that's followed to the letter. :)
We operate in this domain and although we very seldom use SIC's, our POI insists that they autopilot be physically disabled if they are to log time.
 
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