logging PIC as a safety pilot

SATXaviator

New Member
Question: Which FAR states that the safety pilot can log PIC during simulated instrument flight. I have been reviewing part 91.109 and related sections and can't seem to verify if both pilots can log PIC. Well can you?
 

SATXaviator

New Member
I ask this question because in talking with a flight school about reaching the total PIC time as advertised, the instructor stated that when you are flying cross country with your flight partner you both log the time as PIC. At first I took his answer as is...then started thinking about "sole manipulator of the aircraft" ....."determine PIC prior to flight"...etc. Hence my confusion. Come on straighten me out here.
 

mtsu_av8er

Well-Known Member
Safety Pilot assumes full responsibility for safety of flight, he ACTS as PIC. LEft-seat pilot under the hood manipulates flight controls, and he LOGS PIC.

I don't have my FARs in front of me, so I can't quote the specific regulations, but you could probably do a disertation with all of the threads about this subject, so I won't beat that horse any more.
 

SATXaviator

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
Safety Pilot assumes full responsibility for safety of flight, he ACTS as PIC. LEft-seat pilot under the hood manipulates flight controls, and he LOGS PIC.[ QUOTE ]


The safety pilot "ACTS" as PIC..... how is it logged for the safety pilot, if it is even logged? If that is the case..then I have issue with how this flight school accounts for its total logged time.

Thanks for straighten me out
 

E_Dawg

Moderator
Normally the acting PIC would NOT be able to log PIC unless that pilot is also manuiplating the controls... but this is a special case because 61.51 says you can log PIC when "acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required"

More than one pilot is required per 91.109, and if the safety pilot acts as PIC while you fly you're set.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
In the typical safety pilot scenario, the flight is under VFR and both pilots are qualified to act as PIC for the flight, here's the basics (FP= flying pilot under the hood; SP = safety pilot):

1. FP logs PIC because she is the "sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated" 61.51(e)(1)

2. If FP and SP agree that SP is acting as PIC (responsible for the flight) SP may log PIC while FP is under the hood because he "is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under ... the regulations under which the flight is conducted. 61.51(e)(1). Flight in simulated IMC is an operation that requires more than one pilot. 91.109(b).

3. If FP and SP agree that FP is acting as PIC for the flight, SP may log SIC time while FP is under the hood because "more than one pilot is required ... the regulations under which the flight is being conducted. 61.51(f)(2). Flight in simulated IMC is an operation that requires more than one pilot. 91.109(b).
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I just hope I don't get to a paying job and they ask me... "so what is your REAL PIC time???"

[/ QUOTE ]That's a question that's commonly raised. And it comes up in the cross country area also, where each of your 40 flights to the same airport 10 NM away is loggable as a cross country.

I'm not in the aviation business, but the answer seems pretty clear. You log everything you legitimately can for =quantity= but be prepared to show =quality=.

Take that 10 NM cross country for example. Show a potential employer your 300 hours of flights to the airport next door and it will hardly be impressed. But make that employer a small cargo operation at the FBO where you are already teaching who knows you and will give you your first commercial job so long as you meet 135 requirements, and those short hops can become worth their weight in gold.
 

PhotoPilot

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
if they both get to log PIC time whose arse is it if they get in a wreck or a violation?

[/ QUOTE ]

The other guys!
 

Jeff_S_KDTW

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
if they both get to log PIC time whose arse is it if they get in a wreck or a violation?

[/ QUOTE ]The "acting" PIC is the person who is ultimately responsible for the safety of the flight, both in terms of any accident or violation.

In the cases above, the "acting" PIC is the non-flying pilot/passenger who is "acting" PIC during the 3-landings and the SP (remember, both the FP and the SP agreed before the flight that the SP was the "acting" PIC of the flight).

This question illustrates various situations where a safety pilot or non-flying pilot passenger may not want to assume "acting" PIC. That is, the non-flying pilot passenger may wish to remain on the ground while the non-current flying pilot completes his 3 landings to regain currency. During these three landings, the solo non-current flying pilot is thus "acting" PIC and thus is responsible for his own accidents or violations. Similarly, the non-flying safety pilot may wish to serve only in a safety pilot role (i.e. SIC), while the flying pilot (under the hood) serves as "acting" PIC. In this case, the safety pilot may log only SIC time.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I thought CCs were supposed to be over 50nm for purposes of the instrument rating?

[/ QUOTE ]They are. They need to be over 50 nm to meet the cross country requirements for all pilot certificate and ratings (though ATP doesn't require a landing). But cross countries that are less count for other things, including Part 135 minimums.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
if they both get to log PIC time whose arse is it if they get in a wreck or a violation?

[/ QUOTE ]Good question.

But first, as others pointed out, there is a difference between having final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight (commonly referred to as "acting as PIC") and writing numbers in the PIC column of a logbook (referred to a "logging PIC time"). They =never= mean the same thing.

So, in case of that wreck, the person who was designated as having final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight is likely to get his arse in a sling.

But the person who's conduct actually caused the mishap doesn't get away scott free either. In fact, I think that this is the more significant potential exposure.
 

Jeff_S_KDTW

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
But the person who's conduct actually caused the mishap doesn't get away scott free either. In fact, I think that this is the more significant potential exposure.

[/ QUOTE ]And the most typical fact scenario is that both pilots deny being the one "acting" PIC.
 

Hollywood

New Member
if your doing this on a cross country and have a flight plan on file it's who evers name is on the flight plans a$$ if there's an accident or violation. there's no such thing as a safety pilot in the takeoff and landing phases of flight which is when something would likely happen. the sole manipulator of the controls or PIC has to answer to the feds then. when shooting approaches VFR the safety pilot should remind the "the sole manipulator of the controls" to remove the hood or foggles once minimums are reached. at that point there is no more safety pilot. i can't see how a safety pilot would get in any trouble unless maybe there was a mid air collision. in which case who cares. your dead. this is flying on a flight plan of course. i guess the safety pilot could be held responsible if your out buzzing around VFR and bust airspace or something. i don't know why you would want to do that anyway. might as well make it a cross country flight.
 

Hollywood

New Member
oh yeah. when it comes to logging, the safety pilot just logs it under the PIC column as does the PF. the only difference is that the PF is "supposed" to denote in the remarks section the safety pilots name and certificate number. many people do not do this is there is really no way to know whether the PF had a safety pilot on a particular flight or not or whether the instrument time you logged was simulated or actual. many take advantage of the honor system.
 

SUSPilot

Well-Known Member
All you have to denote is the safety pilot's name you do not have to record the certificate number.
 

Jeff_S_KDTW

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
i can't see how a safety pilot would get in any trouble unless maybe there was a mid air collision. in which case who cares. your dead. this is flying on a flight plan of course. i guess the safety pilot could be held responsible if your out buzzing around VFR and bust airspace or something.

[/ QUOTE ]Bingo.[ QUOTE ]
i don't know why you would want to do that anyway. might as well make it a cross country flight.

[/ QUOTE ]I can think of several reasons--one of which is to regain your instrument currency (6 approaches). No need to be on an IFR FP if VMC exists.
 
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