Logbook question

Mustang17c

Well-Known Member
Recently I made an attempt to complete my long solo xc. I got about 10 miles from my first destination and had to divert back to my origin aiport because of low clouds at the destination. (The distance I covered was about 60 miles each way, so I know I have the distance requirement down)
My question is if I can log the time as cross country time even though I did not land at the intended airport and had to divert to my home field?
 

I_Money

Moderator
Unfortunately you can not log it as a cross country and it will look like a local flight minus any notes you add about it. If you had diverted to another field 50nm away from your start point you could have, however from what I remember you do not have that option as a student pilot.

But I do congratulate you on turning around. It is a very tough decision to make and so many pilots go 5 more miles, and 5 more with hopes it will improve and find themselves over their head. You made the right decision, and if you keep doing that you will be a great aviator.
 

davetheflyer

New Member
Iain is correct. From FAR 61.1:

[ QUOTE ]
3) Cross-country time means --

(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(3) (ii), (iii), (iv), and (v) of this section, time acquired during a flight --

(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;

(B) Conducted in an aircraft;

(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and

(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.




[/ QUOTE ]

You have to land somewhere, although according to this definition your landing point doesn't have to be 50 NM from your departure point. The specific FARs for the private license do place such a limitation, however, but it depends on what you want to count the time towards.
 

Mustang17c

Well-Known Member
It's funny you mentioned that,

1- I told my instructor
2 - I forgot to ammend my flight plan when I diverted so I had a phone call from Newark center awaiting my arrival

I guess I'll never forget to close or ammend a flight plan after that one
 

ScorpionStinger

Well-Known Member
okay.. let's say I'm not current. ( no t/o / landing in 6 months) and a friend( current PPL / A&P ) says hey lets go flying to... can i stil log the flight down as Flight Time ???? I know i can not log PIC since i was not Current.. But can i still log the flight



it was in a C-152 I was rated in it.
 

JHines

New Member
The pilot could log it as PIC under 61.51 (private pilot as sole control manipulator), current or not. But, the pilot cannot act as PIC if he's not current. That passenger-carrying flight would be a violation of 61.57(a). Better not to log it!

EDIT - next time I will try reading your whole post before responding. (DUH)


I didn't see the part about your passenger being a current PPL. So yes, you can log as PIC if you're a non-current PPL. He would be the acting PIC. No problem with any regs. If he wasn't a current pilot, the original post would apply.
 

ScorpionStinger

Well-Known Member
I Did not pay the Guy We are both Pilots.. He was current he was PIC I was not current i was not acting PIC( I have my PPL ). What I'm asking is Should i have Logged it as Flight time( like I did that day ). Or is it illegal ???



The fligt was to an Airport 10-15 nm away. He asked if i wanted to go with him so i could help him Do some Maint on the A/C . Then We flew back after the Maint was done.


I was not current to Act as PIC( Fly with a Friend/ Passenger). But I could Still Log it as Flight time Right ????
 

cime_sp

Well-Known Member
You can log the time that YOU were flying the aircraft with no problem. Well within the FAR's....
 

I_Money

Moderator
It is a tough question - if you are not current can you log PIC when you are looking for traffic and your friend is under the hood.

I do not think so, mainly as your friend is PIC therefore he is not a passenger but a crewmember.
 

E_Dawg

Moderator
???? Scorpio, clarify a bit please...

Did YOU fly it? If so, 'sole manipulator of the controls' applies and, while your friend needed to act as PIC for currency reasons, logging and acting PIC are two different ballgames as far as the FAA is concerned (total BS if you ask me, but hey I don't make the rules).

If you did NOT fly it, you can't log it - at least not as PIC or total time for a certificate or rating. But what you log is your business: you can still write it down, just can't count it toward a rating or cert.

That's why a non instrument rated private can log PIC in actual instrument conditions even without an instructor on board - all he needs is an instrument rated buddy to act as PIC. Get this - the guy who acts as PIC cannot log the time because he didn't touch the controls.

You can actually have a situation where NO ONE can *legally* log PIC: When you fly your non-pilot friends around and let them fly, you technically can't log PIC for the time they were at the controls because you're neither the 'sole occupant' nor the 'sole manipulator'.

Try Doc's FAR pages
 

aloft

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
You can actually have a situation where NO ONE can *legally* log PIC: When you fly your non-pilot friends around and let them fly, you technically can't log PIC for the time they were at the controls because you're neither the 'sole occupant' nor the 'sole manipulator'.


[/ QUOTE ]I find this a bit disputable; the only time the PIC couldn't log is when another appropriately-rated pilot is manipulating the controls, and the aircraft and/or operation doesn't require a second crewmember. If you're the only appropriately-rated pilot aboard, you're PIC and can log the time as such, regardless of what trained monkey is manipulating the controls. Saying that the PIC can't legally log the time when a non-appropriately-rated individual (pilot or not) is sole manipulator of the controls is roughly equivalent to saying that you can't log time when the autopilot is engaged.

I agree that in the case above, where a non-current pilot that is rated for the aircraft is sole manipulator, but another pilot is acting as PIC (again, of an aircraft or operation that doesn't require more than one pilot crewmember), one or the other can log the time, but not both--and I'd say it's probably the pilot manipulating the controls.
 

Mr_Creepy

Well-Known Member
This one is always tossed around at our CFI clinics and is a favorite hangar flying topic.

I have in my possession a letter from an FAA inspector which states that since an aircraft with a hooded pilot and a safety pilot is now operating under regulations that requires two pilots, they may both log PIC.

However lets look at an airline situation. A BE1900 requires two pilots. Suppose you get the situation where two captains are flying, because there were no FOs available. Can they both log PIC? Most crew room lawyers will say NO. Only the guy who signed the release is PIC.

No DPE that I know will deny that your time as safety pilot meets the PIC requirement. If you need so much PIC for a basic rating, I would say log it as such.

Now when you get in to turbine flying, I would be more careful. Several airline interview boards will deny turbine PIC when you were a CFI riding along in the right seat of a king-air. Southwest comes to mind, and they have a 1000 turbine PIC requirement.

Hope this helps some. I have a feeling I have just stirred the mud more.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
FWIW, here's my persona FAQ - a simple version of the loging PIC rules as they have been written in the FAR and repeatedly and consistently interpreted by the FAA Legal Counsel for at least 20 years.

(I'm limiting it to student, recreational, private, and commercial pilots. CFIs and ATPs can fend for themselves. If they don't know the rules, tough.)

Rule 1 If you are a recreational, private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft you are rated for.

"Rated" means the category and class (and type, if a type rating is necessary for the aircraft) that is listed on the back of your pilot certificate. Nothing else matters. Not instrument ratings. Not endorsements for high performance, complex, tailwheel aircraft. Not medical currency. Not flight reviews. Not night currency. Nothing.

Rule 2 If you are a student, recreational, private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are the only person in the aircraft.

This means that even without category and class ratings, you may log PIC time if you are solo. In addition to the obvious (student solo) it also means, for example, that if you are ASEL and solo in an AMEL or ASES, you may log the time as PIC.

Rule 3 If you are a private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are acting as PIC* of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required.

More than one pilot may be required because the aircraft is not certified for single-pilot operations. But more common for us, it covers simulated instrument flight where a second "safety pilot" is required by the regulations all the time that the "manipulator" is under the hood. If the two pilots agree that the safety pilot is acting as PIC, the safety pilot can log the time as PIC.

Rule 4
Based on a unpublished 1977 Chief Counsel opinion (there is some reasonable disagreement on whether it's still any good), you may log PIC if you are acting as PIC* and you are the only person on board with the necessary aircraft ratings.

This is the answer to the silly question: "Can I log PIC while I let my two year old fly the airplane?" Frankly, I can't imagine that the FAA gives a hoot about this one way or another.

Rule 5
If you are a student, recreational, private, or commercial pilot and don't fit into Rules 1-4, you may not log the time as PIC even if you are acting as PIC.


*"Acting as PIC" assumes that you are qualified to act as PIC. That does mean being current and having the appropriate endorsements in addition to ratings.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I have a feeling I have just stirred the mud more.

[/ QUOTE ]Actually you haven't stirred anything concerning the current discussion. When we are talking about PIC time, we are often talking about three completely different things:

1. =Acting= as PIC. This is about responsibility — who is ultimately in charge of and responsible for the flight. This often has nothing to do with who is logging PIC.

2. =Logging= PIC. This is about who the FAA says is allowed to write numbers down in a column in a logbook or application for a certificate or rating.

3. Employment Requirements. This is about what a potential employer is looking for in a pilot. It's about quality, not regulations. If you have 1000 hours logged PIC time, and 800 came while acting as a safety pilot in a Cessna 152, it's all legitimate. But if present that 152 right seat time to a potential employer as showing your vast experience as PIC, the potential employer =may= be impressed, but only after she is able to stop laughing.
 

Mr_Creepy

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't laugh. I would respect 800 hrs as safety pilot, assuming you were dilligently watching for traffic. I also respect 800 hrs sitting in the right seat trying to help a student learning to land.

Flying is as much about the head work and interpersonal relationships as it is about dexterity and technical skills.

One more note: If you are a CFI, are qualified in the aircraft and you can reach the controls, even from the back seat - you will be considered as PIC in the court case following any accident or incident.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
One more note: If you are a CFI, are qualified in the aircraft and you can reach the controls, even from the back seat - you will be considered as PIC in the court case following any accident or incident.


[/ QUOTE ]Do you have a reference for that other than the well-known urban legend?
 
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