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Just because its legal, doesn't make it safe

Discussion in 'Air Traffic Control' started by N90-EWR, May 31, 2013.

  1. killbilly

    killbilly Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens

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    inigo88 said it the way I wanted to and should have.
     
  2. N90-EWR

    N90-EWR Well-Known Member

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    Good post, and I agree with most of what you said. Unfortunately the NY class B was designed long time ago, and does not include extensions to protect for the final approach course for the TEB ILS RWY19, or the TEB VOR RWY24, or the MMU ILS RWY23, or the MMU RNAV RWY5 (to name the ones in my area that are affected). Yes, I am somewhat jaded because it has been an ongoing issue for a long time, and unfortunately is really hard to get airspace changes done, specially one involving the NY Bravo. I'd be willing to follow through with that sugestion to a more educational approach, and make myself available to participate in user meetings, etc.
     
    inigo88 likes this.
  3. inigo88

    inigo88 Composite-lover

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    Thanks! I don't even fly on the east coast, and I'm genuinely concerned and interested in the issue. Would you say the biggest problem in your area is the vertical separation between EWR arrivals and the VFR guys beneath the bravo shelves, or conflicts between those TEB and MMU approaches and non-participating VFR? While it might be difficult to modify the bravo dimensions to accommodate TEB, I think TEB has been long overdue to become a Class C! Just looking at number of aircraft movements in the port authority reports hovering around 150,000-200,000, that seems like more than enough. For comparison, Santa Barbara (SBA, class B here in southern California) only has 180,000 movements annually. I can see how lobbying the FAA to make such a drastic change can seem insurmountable (especially at the rate they move), but the numbers seem to be there... and I'm pretty sure all the part 91 corporate guys flying in there would probably appreciate less near misses as well.
     
  4. N90-EWR

    N90-EWR Well-Known Member

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    TEB is already under the NY class B. Approaches to runway 6 and runway 1 are covered, and never have that issue. Its the other side of the operation when we're landing runway 19 or 24 that we have an issue with 1200 VFR's crossing the finals at low alt under the bravo. MMU has similar issues, though their traffic volume is a bit lower, and probably wont get much attention. With EWR the problem is less frequent, but when they happen they're usually pretty scary because of a heavy jet involved going over the top of a small GA.
     
  5. z987k

    z987k TeamANC

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    As long as the jet carrying passengers is ok, no one really cares. If someone wants to go trail a 757 in a 152 at 1nm, well it's their funeral. Pt 91 is regulated just enough to keep the general public generally safe. But you have a TON of latitude to go kill yourself in an airplane.
     
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  6. JustinS

    JustinS Well-Known Member

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    If it becomes a big enough issue they should just make airports Class A, and lower the shelves like they do in Europe at large busy airports like Heathrow. IFR traffic only.
     
  7. N90-EWR

    N90-EWR Well-Known Member

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    That would be going to the total opposite extreme, and unnecessary. I feel extending the outter class bravo boundary by 5 miles, and lowering the floor of the bravo to 1500 would eliminate all the current conflict areas, and still provide the GA users with a way in and out.
     
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  8. JustinS

    JustinS Well-Known Member

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    I agree, GA is huge here in American and AOPA fights hard for us, but it seems that some stricter air space rules in one way or another need to be implemented in such congested environments.
     
  9. ljg

    ljg Well-Known Member

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    I have some pretty extensive experience with TEB and I would really be uncomfortable if they lowered the Bravo to 1,500'. There are some 700'-800' tall structures and Part 91 requires 1,000' above the tallest obstalces in congested areas. I'd have to check but I believe the floor of the Bravo is 1,800'. It's been a little while since I've flown out of there.

    When I did, I agree there is a serious issue with traversing traffic across TUGGZ. Aircraft should be able to be VFR at 2,500 or 1,500 if they are 7-8 miles off the final, and remain clear of the Bravo. I've seen it many times. We hardly ever were sequenced for the VOR 24 at TEB, so I can't speak to that as being as much of an issue. I've also gone missed off of RWY 19 (yeah, missed in freight - can you believe) and caught the wake of EWR arrivals a few hundred feet above me - not a ragingly fun experience in the soup.

    I have left TEB VFR numerous times when the TRACON runs individual releases out of TEB, and I was chasing a deadline. I hated doing it every. single. time.
     
  10. Derg

    Derg Naval Intelligence, MCRN Staff Member

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    There were parachute drops over CCC at 12000 today.

    What the... Really?
     
  11. RABIRZA69

    RABIRZA69 Penalty vectorer

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  12. Derg

    Derg Naval Intelligence, MCRN Staff Member

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  13. N90-EWR

    N90-EWR Well-Known Member

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  14. rframe

    rframe pǝʇɹǝʌuı

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    By design and I personally think that's a good thing. As an FAA inspector told me "we really dont care if you want to go kill yourself in an airplane, just dont hurt anybody else while you do it".
     
  15. drunkenbeagle

    drunkenbeagle Gang Member

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    ORL.LZARD5 into TPA goes straight through a drop zone that is pretty much always active to 13500, with a ton of gliders (sans transponders) at 5000. That's all outside the Bravo, and thankfully that arrival isn't all that busy.
     
  16. NovemberEcho

    NovemberEcho Well-Known Member

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    Old thread I know but I notice a lot of the Ga pilots with the "right to be there" argument aren't noting the VFR guy on a1200 code is at a hard altitude, not 1500 or 2500. If they would just climb or descend 500ft they wouldn't be the issue they are and still clear of the bravo.
     
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  17. LISRAREF

    LISRAREF Well-Known Member

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    Theres another parachute operation that drops right over one of the NY Metro stars.... We have told the jump operation what they are doing is unsafe numerous times.... They drop from 2000 ft above the crossing altitude of arrivals and we have had numerous incidents of jumpers or the jump aircraft being spotted or setting off RA's........ We kept refusing to allow the flight up but he would cancel and go up anyway, just advising right before jumping...... Well the jump plane got seriously close to an arrival one day and now the operator wants to work with us to figure a solution out........... Once again, just because its legal doesn't mean we should do it...... We need to use common sense sometimes and apply that into all operations for the safety of the NAS as a whole.
     
  18. Screaming_Emu

    Screaming_Emu You people

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    I've gotten to fly up the Hudson twice and at the advice of @Van_Hoolio I decided to avoid the VFR corridor and instead contact NY approach and ask to be cleared in 100ft above the bottom of the B. Both times they were extremely helpful and we got an awesome view of the city. It was really nice having the extra set of eyes and to know that we weren't on anyone's way.
     
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