Is it unethical for a pilot to accept an upgrade outside of seniority?

Do you feel the same way about people that cross the picket line?
Hold up, let’s not compare this to SCABbing. Nothing compares to being a dirty SCAB.

As a new pilot working on my CPL right now and looking to go 121, this entire thread has been rather intriguing to say the least.

My question on this point (to anyone not just you), roughly what % of FOs looking to upgrade don't make it through training to get that CA upgrade?

If you do fail that upgrade, how long before you would be given another opportunity?

The reason I ask is because if the pass rate is extremely high, then it does mean you get the upgrade and your point is not really valid. This would imply that people are upgrading that are not as qualified but are getting to do so based solely on seniority rather than ability. On the face of it, in such a safety intensive industry this is absolutely absurd.
What you’re missing is that the poeple who can’t fly are weeded out before they ever get to be FOs. New hires are on probation and can be canned at will in new hire training, on IOE, and even on the line their first year. There aren’t a bunch of incompetent copilots flying around just waiting for a captain bid. It doesn’t work like that.
 

tbflyer

Well-Known Member
Hold up, let’s not compare this to SCABbing. Nothing compares to being a dirty SCAB.



What you’re missing is that the poeple who can’t fly are weeded out before they ever get to be FOs. New hires are on probation and can be canned at will in new hire training, on IOE, and even on the line their first year. There aren’t a bunch of incompetent copilots flying around just waiting for a captain bid. It doesn’t work like that.
If you believe new hires are filtered out you must be dilusional. Yes the worst of the worst are filtered out but there are plenty who barely made it through training. Heck, I have flown with commercial pilots that I question their ability to hold a solo endorsement as a student. Now it’s rare but there are pilots out there that have no business in a cockpit, if you have never flown with one.... I’m sure you have
 
If you believe new hires are filtered out you must be dilusional. Yes the worst of the worst are filtered out but there are plenty who barely made it through training. Heck, I have flown with commercial pilots that I question their ability to hold a solo endorsement as a student. Now it’s rare but there are pilots out there that have no business in a cockpit, if you have never flown with one.... I’m sure you have
They’re out there. But again, very rare. No system can ever be perfect.
 

Jordan93

Well-Known Member
As a new pilot working on my CPL right now and looking to go 121, this entire thread has been rather intriguing to say the least.

My question on this point (to anyone not just you), roughly what % of FOs looking to upgrade don't make it through training to get that CA upgrade?

If you do fail that upgrade, how long before you would be given another opportunity?

The reason I ask is because if the pass rate is extremely high, then it does mean you get the upgrade and your point is not really valid. This would imply that people are upgrading that are not as qualified but are getting to do so based solely on seniority rather than ability. On the face of it, in such a safety intensive industry this is absolutely absurd.
I took the upgrade as soon I could with around 1100 hours in the jet. I never had any prior airline experience and I was just a CFI before I got hired. I don’t have the exact numbers but at my company, the failure rate for captains was higher than the company wanted it to be. I had 10 people in my upgrade class and we all passed on our first try. It used to be a year before you could try again if you failed once and 18 months if you fail it again. We just passed an LOA that gives them 6 months on the first fail and a year on the second.
 

nbv4

Well-Known Member
Nobody stole your job. There’s no comparison. There’s only one thing that qualifies as being a SCAB: taking somone’s job while he’s on strike.
Taking someone's upgrade is equivalent to taking their job. The setback to your career that comes from getting screwed on an upgrade can be just as bad as the effect of getting screwed over by scabs.
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
I was next up for upgrade at Skyway, the chief pilot hired his buddy from Basler, made him a street captain and since I was the most senior FO in the base, made me fly with him and baby sit him for a month and I didn't actually get send to class for six months later. It's ok, it all worked out in the end, gloriously.

That was a big middle finger to me but, at the end of the day, he wasn't a scab.
 

BigZ

Well-Known Member
Taking someone's upgrade is equivalent to taking their job. The setback to your career that comes from getting screwed on an upgrade can be just as bad as the effect of getting screwed over by scabs.
This is getting to be annoying af

There are airlines with unions and seniority system
There are 91/135 shops which might or might not have the seniority system
Should you find yourself in a shop that's not (entirely) seniority based, no reason to cry bloody murder if someone gets upgraded before you. No-one owes you anything unless it was specifically written in your letter of employment. And even then...
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
This is getting to be annoying af

There are airlines with unions and seniority system
There are 91/135 shops which might or might not have the seniority system
Should you find yourself in a shop that's not (entirely) seniority based, no reason to cry bloody murder if someone gets upgraded before you. No-one owes you anything unless it was specifically written in your letter of employment. And even then...
So, in other words, "just because it makes you mad, doesn't mean it's wrong".
 
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