Intercept a radial or course to a waypoint

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
I'm putting this in the controller area although an answer fro anyone would be appreciated.

I'm looking for a real world example of a situation in which a pilot, particularly a light GA pilot might be asked to intercept a course or radial. Soley to explain what I am getting at, suppose the clearance from MVY begins with V374 GON (which is off the pic). The aircraft takes off on runway 6 and is vectored. At some point instead of a heading to join V374 or an instruction to proceed direct to some waypoint, the instruction is to fly heading 310 intercept the 340 course to FALMA. I can do that, but want something real.

For context, one of my COVID projects has been a few videos comparing how Garmin and Avidyne GPS navigators handle some of the less common clearances and instructions. For this one, I want to demonstrate differences in the way OBS mode works, so it's more about using OBS mode in the real world than the specific instruction. Links to the two I did already below the map for those curious (and bored)
One is a hold at a from a fix on an airway. The other is creating a user waypoint to intercept a radial/distance fix after takeoff


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web265

Well-Known Member
Your example seems pretty real world to me. We used to get one going from KCKZ to KSLK all the time, and I never understood why.

It would be something like KCKZ to the 14 dme ETX on the 234 radial (within a mile of the FLOAT intersection) SARAA LAAYK .....

For some reason they couldn't give us direct SARAA from KCKZ, I never researched why, but at the same time they wouldn't use FLOAT.

90% of the time they would turn us toward LAAYK before we got to the rad/dme fix. For reference this is about 30 miles north of PHL. Click on the thumbnail for the charted area.

Screenshot from 2020-05-13 10-15-26.png
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
Your example seems pretty real world to me. We used to get one going from KCKZ to KSLK all the time, and I never understood why.

It would be something like KCKZ to the 14 dme ETX on the 234 radial (within a mile of the FLOAT intersection) SARAA LAAYK .....

For some reason they couldn't give us direct SARAA from KCKZ, I never researched why, but at the same time they wouldn't use FLOAT.

90% of the time they would turn us toward LAAYK before we got to the rad/dme fix. For reference this is about 30 miles north of PHL. Click on the thumbnail for the charted area.

View attachment 53388
Thanks.

Yeah, mine sounds real world, but I want to have a response to ,"oh that never happens" by saying this one real is one which is given. Kind of like with the video I did on the GSO 240/7 (and I think that one is similar to your example and in this new one I want to use an existing waypoint) . That one is from a real and common IFR departure clearance.
 

NovemberEcho

Dergs favorite member
A south departure off a satellite airport, let’s say N07. Clearance is “elvae...COL...dixie...”. Rather than go to elvae, because it could be in the way of other stuff, we sometimes give a heading to join the COL 350 radial to track inbound.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
A south departure off a satellite airport, let’s say N07. Clearance is “elvae...COL...dixie...”. Rather than go to elvae, because it could be in the way of other stuff, we sometimes give a heading to join the COL 350 radial to track inbound.
Thank you! I'm collecting a few but that works great. I played with it for N07 to ACY.

Two questions.

I'm trying to get a mental picture of the vectoring. I realize it's traffic dependent but even if there is not some common set of vectors, about where would the airplane be when given the instruction to join the COL 350?

Does it work coming out of CDW too? Only asking because the underlying routing. ELVAE, COL, DUXIE seems to be a very common one.
 

NovemberEcho

Dergs favorite member
Thank you! I'm collecting a few but that works great. I played with it for N07 to ACY.

Two questions.

I'm trying to get a mental picture of the vectoring. I realize it's traffic dependent but even if there is not some common set of vectors, about where would the airplane be when given the instruction to join the COL 350?

Does it work coming out of CDW too? Only asking because the underlying routing. ELVAE, COL, DUXIE seems to be a very common one.
Yeah it can work off CDW, MMU, and TEB too. Usually only use it for the little slow guys. Since they’re capped at 5,000 til COL and slow, we will lots of times vector them directly over EWR to keep them out of the way and then give them like a 180-200 heading to join the radial. The other times, say departing off of 4N1, we keep them wide and have them on a southish heading to join the radial around MMU. We almost always just use the 350 radial cause it’s depicted since back in the day that was the standard clearance routing.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
Yeah it can work off CDW, MMU, and TEB too. Usually only use it for the little slow guys. Since they’re capped at 5,000 til COL and slow, we will lots of times vector them directly over EWR to keep them out of the way and then give them like a 180-200 heading to join the radial. The other times, say departing off of 4N1, we keep them wide and have them on a southish heading to join the radial around MMU. We almost always just use the 350 radial cause it’s depicted since back in the day that was the standard clearance routing.
Thanks again. This may be perfect. One more important question - how do you pronounce ELVAE? Just El-Vay?

If I use it, you want credit?
 

web265

Well-Known Member
@NovemberEcho Legit question here, where do you get the pronunciations? Many are obvious but when I worked at 3NJ6 (PVT) and we'd get the RNAV 20, no two controllers (PHL) would use the same pronunciation for the fixes GAPAQ, OBAHE and on the other side IPBEH. Half the time it sounded like they were trying to pronounce a word from a native american language. Do they publish pronunciations somewhere when they make the fix names or does it just become colloquial?
 

NovemberEcho

Dergs favorite member
@NovemberEcho Legit question here, where do you get the pronunciations? Many are obvious but when I worked at 3NJ6 (PVT) and we'd get the RNAV 20, no two controllers (PHL) would use the same pronunciation for the fixes GAPAQ, OBAHE and on the other side IPBEH. Half the time it sounded like they were trying to pronounce a word from a native american language. Do they publish pronunciations somewhere when they make the fix names or does it just become colloquial?
there’s no standard. Like for the RNAV 5 into MMU, half the people call KWITE as Kay-white and the other half say quite.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
there’s no standard. Like for the RNAV 5 into MMU, half the people call KWITE as Kay-white and the other half say quite.
Not those, but I recall a flight to a new area. I mentioned the name of a waypoint and the controller had no idea what I was talking about. It was in his sector but I was pronouncing it different.

Let's just be tankful we on't have to try to pronounce CNFs!! :eek:
 

inigo88

Composite-lover
I'm putting this in the controller area although an answer fro anyone would be appreciated.

I'm looking for a real world example of a situation in which a pilot, particularly a light GA pilot might be asked to intercept a course or radial. Soley to explain what I am getting at, suppose the clearance from MVY begins with V374 GON (which is off the pic). The aircraft takes off on runway 6 and is vectored. At some point instead of a heading to join V374 or an instruction to proceed direct to some waypoint, the instruction is to fly heading 310 intercept the 340 course to FALMA. I can do that, but want something real.

For context, one of my COVID projects has been a few videos comparing how Garmin and Avidyne GPS navigators handle some of the less common clearances and instructions. For this one, I want to demonstrate differences in the way OBS mode works, so it's more about using OBS mode in the real world than the specific instruction. Links to the two I did already below the map for those curious (and bored)
One is a hold at a from a fix on an airway. The other is creating a user waypoint to intercept a radial/distance fix after takeoff


View attachment 53386

The SANP4 TEC route for jets and turboprops between SAN and SNA is “MZB293R SLI148R SLI.”

Even though SoCal approach usually takes you off the route with direct or at least a more direct vector, it’s an interesting route to program because last I checked there was no published fix between the MZB 293 radial and the SLI 148 radial. So you can create your own user defined waypoint, or in a pinch use OBS to intercept the MZB 293R outbound.
 

msmspilot

Well-Known Member
Departing MOB to the northeast, the clearance is usually SJI V20 MGM... You get vectors after takeoff to join V20 going NE.
 

milleR

Well-Known Member
there’s no standard. Like for the RNAV 5 into MMU, half the people call KWITE as Kay-white and the other half say quite.
It often seems to be a local thing. The IAF for the RNAV 16 into DMW is UNYTS. Not being from around here you'd be forgiven for saying "units" (once). But those of us that live here know it's named after the greatest quarterback of all time, Johhny Unitas and is so pronounced :)
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
The SANP4 TEC route for jets and turboprops between SAN and SNA is “MZB293R SLI148R SLI.”

Even though SoCal approach usually takes you off the route with direct or at least a more direct vector, it’s an interesting route to program because last I checked there was no published fix between the MZB 293 radial and the SLI 148 radial. So you can create your own user defined waypoint, or in a pinch use OBS to intercept the MZB 293R outbound.
I'm in a discussion in a Facebook group with someone who insists it is illegal to create a user waypoint and navigate to it :def:
 

z987k

Well-Known Member
I'm in a discussion in a Facebook group with someone who insists it is illegal to create a user waypoint and navigate to it :def:
Hahahaha. How does he think we cross oceans? How does he think every single FMC navigates to radial/distance instructions? How does he think we navigate under IFR to airports that aren't even in the database?
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
Hahahaha. How does he think we cross oceans? How does he think every single FMC navigates to radial/distance instructions? How does he think we navigate under IFR to airports that aren't even in the database?
Beats me. I finally gave up. I gave him 5 references to FAA documents which talk about doing exactly that - FAA's Advanced Avionics Handbook refers to it as an essential skill - and told him to find even one relevant contrary statement from the FAA before I responded to any more of his arguments. Haven't heard from him since.
 

msmspilot

Well-Known Member
Hahahaha. How does he think we cross oceans? How does he think every single FMC navigates to radial/distance instructions? How does he think we navigate under IFR to airports that aren't even in the database?
Those things all sound dangerous, as I have never done them, and therefore, are careless and reckless, therefore, illegal. :stir:
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
A south departure off a satellite airport, let’s say N07. Clearance is “elvae...COL...dixie...”. Rather than go to elvae, because it could be in the way of other stuff, we sometimes give a heading to join the COL 350 radial to track inbound.
This is what I'm using. It turns out to be ore interesting than I first thought for a number of reasons. I'll toss it here when (if) it's done.

I have one more question. I've been taken to task more than once for not using perfect ATC phraseology.

So what is the instruction to join. I think I got the first part, "Fly heading 200. Join the Colts Neck 350 degree radial." But what comes after? Is it "inbound?" "To Colts Neck?" "Sounteastbound?"

Thanks again.
 
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