Indonesian 737 missing


Well-Known Member
Why haven't they found the CVR by now? I really hope the western Navy forces are using their technology to help find it. The pingers died a while ago for the CVR but I really hope it is found. Sadly, without the CVR we truly won't know what really happened on that flight deck.


I'm a carnal, organic anagram.
Ignoring the aspect that made it a bit easier to get full authority with partial pedal movement with the flaps up, my recollection is that AA had come up with the procedure after someone found it worked in non-transport airplanes (and was advocating it in one of these URT courses I believe?). In any event, it was validated in the simulator, which was not programmed to fail with that sort of overload. After the stall event in 1999 Airbus, Boeing and MD sent them a joint letter not to do that, and they stopped training it but apparently never "untrained" it either. That was my recollection, without looking anything up. Classic in our industry, things like this have happened prior and since.
Agreed. The bigger problem was the simulator scenario for wake turbulence itself was very unrealistic. The pilots were told they were behind a heavy 747 (just like a JAL 747 was in JFK that fateful day). First, the sim would bank 10 degrees in one direction, and then the sim plane would bank 90 degrees in the opposite direction. What they found was pilots immediately corrected it and it wasn't going to the 90 degree upset they wanted. To fix that, pilot input was "locked out" until the sim got to 90 degrees bank. The report said that for pilots that represented a severe over reaction to wake. No widebody jetliner has flipped 90 degrees due to wake. Not only that, the primary problem of negative training that initially their full aileron input and even full rudder dosen't stop the bank to 90, and once there they used full opposite aileron and rudder to get out. The AAMP program in the sim is where a lot of negative learning happened.

I think the AAMP program meant well. It came as a direct result of the AA 757 accident in Cali. But the ground school theory and sim sessions basically mirrored stuff that would work in F4s.
I've seen 70 degrees of roll from wake turbulence (though it could have been more or less, we never saw the FOQA data), and I've gotta say my first reaction when I saw it was to stomp on the opposite rudder. I wasn't flying, and thankfully the captain kept his feet off the pedals, but it looked like the right solution based on sight picture alone.

And I'm not sure why that was. Maybe it initially looked like the incipient phase of a spin, and that's the first thing my brain went to in trying to identify what was happening?

In any event, when it stopped, we were left in a 70 degree left bank and a 20 degree down angle. We were lucky it happened at 5,000'.

Thankfully I don't think the plane would have let us put a full rudder application in, since the EMB-175 has a rudder limiter that, if I remember correctly, is based on speed.

Points being, automation can save you, and the first things you learn in a plane (pick up the wing with the rudder in a stall) are hard to unlearn.


Well-Known Member
The bigger the aircraft the less affect from WT. I'm surprised the E170 went as far as 70 degrees, but an A300 certainly wouldn't have gone that far.


Well-Known Member
What a cheap/broke country Indonesia apparently is. They can't afford to pay the recovery efforts for the MAX and can't recover the CVR or dead bodies. Now the airline Lion Air itself is paying to get a new ship from Singapore to recover more of the aircraft.

"United Nations rules stipulate such a search and investigation should be done independently of parties such as an airline. "

Boeing more interested in avoiding liability than Lion Air victims, lawyer says


Lion Air Investigation Stalled By Lack Of Money - AVweb flash Article


Staff member
You're thinking Pinnacle 3701.
We had an A-10 on an FCF flight have the same thing happen to one of its engines and almost to the other, nearly the same as 3701. The issue being investigated with the same basic motors.