IFR and no turn coordinator

timeoff

New Member
Can a second attitude indicator be used in lieu of a turn coordinator under IFR? Anyone have an advisory circular or know of a POH supplement referencing this?

I've got a student who's plane doesn't have one and I am having trouble teaching timed turns as well as partial panel due to not having a TC installed.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated!
 

timeoff

New Member
Thanks!

To add to this....how would you do partial panel with an HSI, AI and a backup electric AI? When I fail the two primary gyros....he still has the backup AI and its pointless. When I then fail the second AI....he loses control of the airplane due to no bank information?

How would the examiner on the checkride test him on partial panel in this situation?
 

av8or91

Well-Known Member
Not a CFii so I couldnt anwer that question how he would be tested. There are plenty of CFII here that will probably chime in.

Isnt it pretty much impossible to sense have bank information without a HI and both AI's. I guess the only instrument you have left is a GPS( if there is one) and a compass which would be very difficult. I can only think of one other way to sense bank and that would be by using your semi circular canals in your ears but that would be a bad thing to teach and would probably set him up for some spatial disorientation.

What kind of plane is this?
 

tgrayson

New Member
How would the examiner on the checkride test him on partial panel in this situation?
Have you read the instrument PTS? There is no "partial panel" per se on the checkride anymore. There is
D. TASK: APPROACH WITH LOSS OF PRIMARY FLIGHT INSTRUMENT INDICATORS
and the introduction says
AREA OF OPERATION IV requires the evaluation of basic instrument flight maneuvers under both full-panel and references to backup primary flight instruments/electronic flight instrument displays.

So the examiner would be out of bounds to fail both attitude indicators, since that would be failing both primary and secondary flight instruments. Timed turns aren't a requirement for the checkride, but a 15 degree bank is pretty close for a standard rate turn at typical airspeeds. You could also use compass turns, instead, or the track of a GPS.
 

ILS37R

Well-Known Member
Have you read the instrument PTS? There is no "partial panel" per se on the checkride anymore. There is
D. TASK: APPROACH WITH LOSS OF PRIMARY FLIGHT INSTRUMENT INDICATORS
and the introduction says
AREA OF OPERATION IV requires the evaluation of basic instrument flight maneuvers under both full-panel and references to backup primary flight instruments/electronic flight instrument displays.

So the examiner would be out of bounds to fail both attitude indicators, since that would be failing both primary and secondary flight instruments. Timed turns aren't a requirement for the checkride, but a 15 degree bank is pretty close for a standard rate turn at typical airspeeds. You could also use compass turns, instead, or the track of a GPS.
If your student is taking an instrument checkride in a plane with an HSI, make sure they have an answer if the DPE asks, "Well, what would you do if you had a vacuum failure in a plane with a conventional DG?"
 

MikeOH58

Well-Known Member
Not a CFii so I couldnt anwer that question

I can only think of one other way to sense bank and that would be by using your semi circular canals in your ears but that would be a bad thing to teach and would probably set him up for some spatial disorientation.
good intent, but I hope this is the first and last time you recommend or mention this technique. If someone takes you serious this is a good way to get killed.
 

bdhill1979

Gone West
Using 15% of your airspeed as bank angle will get you an approximate standard rate turn. In fact I teach my students to not look at the turn coordinator until after the bank is established, then use it to maintain. I find it way to sloppy an instrument to be chasing after, particularly in turbulence.
 

bdhill1979

Gone West
I can only think of one other way to sense bank and that would be by using your semi circular canals in your ears but that would be a bad thing to teach and would probably set him up for some spatial disorientation.
really bad idea, even in jest.

One thing I always do the first time my student enters IMC is take control of the plane and have him look out the window and not at the instruments. After a few minutes bumping through the clouds he has no idea which way is up, have we turned or stayed straight, are we level...etc.

The point is to teach that your senses are absolutely useless in IMC. you have no choice but to trust your instruments, and as such better learn how to detect discrepancies in them quickly and accurately.
 

timeoff

New Member
Have you read the instrument PTS?
Yes. I just don't feel comfortable sending an instrument student on his way without ever having truly flown partial panel. Passing him through to the DPE is one thing....making him proficient and safe in most all conditions is truly my intent.

The plane is a turbo Saratoga and I've been using 20 degrees of bank for cruise flight (145kts) and 16 degrees for approach speeds (110kts). I have been covering up all the gyros and having him use the compass card for bank information.....that is when a/c control is lost. When I give him back the GPS he does just fine.

I just want to make sure he keeps the plane upright in a complete electrical failure since the HSI and backup AI are elec.
 

SpiceWeasel

Tre Kronor
Learning the instrument rating in a turbo Saratoga? Wow, that's a lot of speed.

<--- IR in 152.

Crawl before you walk, perhaps?
 

tgrayson

New Member
I just want to make sure he keeps the plane upright in a complete electrical failure since the HSI and backup AI are elec.
What are the odds he'll lose vacuum and electric? And if he did, he'd be lost with a turn coordinator, too, since it would be electric in this scenario.
 

av8or91

Well-Known Member
I would never recommend using your body senses but I was just saying there would be no other way to sense bank with all those instruments failed.
 

MikeOH58

Well-Known Member
I'd tie a weighted string to the mag compass before ever even considering using my "senses" with total failure in IMC. At that point you just hope to break out high enough above the ground without having completely ripped the airplane apart, or your pretty much as good as dead.
 

tgrayson

New Member
I'd tie a weighted string to the mag compass before ever even considering using my "senses" with total failure in IMC.
That doesn't work either. Haven't you seen Bob Hoover roll the airplane while pouring a glass of water? In coordinated flight, "gravity" acts through the floor of the airplane, whether you're in level flight or in a 60+ banked turn.

You've got to have a gyro.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
Yes. I just don't feel comfortable sending an instrument student on his way without ever having truly flown partial panel.
Guess it'll take a while for you to get used to teaching in a glass panel aircraft where "partial panel" consists of a "traditional" AI, ASI and Alt.
 

sdfcvoh

This is my Custom Title
QUES: You're in IMC and you loose 100% of your instruments. Nada, Nothing, Gone. We're talking 100% nightmare situation.

What do you do? I thought that maybe the best chance at living would be to pull power and put the controls into position for a forward slip.

Thoughts?
 

notawannabee

New Member
QUES: You're in IMC and you loose 100% of your instruments. Nada, Nothing, Gone. We're talking 100% nightmare situation.

What do you do? I thought that maybe the best chance at living would be to pull power and put the controls into position for a forward slip.

Thoughts?
I hear the weather is much better in the stratosphere. Just climb till you reach it. I'm just kiddin' with ya' . couldn't resist.
 
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