How is PFT different from ... ?

powerlifter

New Member
From what I understand, PFT (pay for training) is a misnomer. When someone complains about PFT, they're criticizing the act of "buying" a job. The vast majority of pilots oppose PFT for two main reasons:

1) It displaces more qualified pilots.
2) It depresses the market rate for pilots.

Given that definition of PFT, and those reasons for opposing PFT, consider the following:

1) How is PFT any different from having a resume walked in? It will definitely displace qualified pilots. What makes using a personal connection to get a job any different from using money to get a job? In both cases, you're greasing the skids in order to land a job you probably wouldn't be able to attain otherwise.

2) How is PFT any different than going through a training program with a "guaranteed" interview (MAPD, PACE, etc.)? From what I understand, if you've got the interview, you've got the job. This displaces other pilots who weren't willing to spend the extra cash to attend a school with the guaranteed interview, even though their ratings are just as good. Displacement aside, graduating into that sort of a regional airline (v. low salary) lowers the market rate for pilots.

As an aside, I do not support PFT. However, behavior which results in anyone other than the most highly qualified applicant getting the job is totally unacceptable. It seems as though having your resume walked in/paying for an interview are just that.
 

JEP

Malko In Charge
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
1) How is PFT any different from having a resume walked in? It will definitely displace qualified pilots. What makes using a personal connection to get a job any different from using money to get a job? In both cases, you're greasing the skids in order to land a job you probably wouldn't be able to attain otherwise.



[/ QUOTE ]

If I was to walkin/email a resume I still gained my hours in what many see as a more favorable way. I would not see that as displacnig more qualified pilots. If I gained my hours/job through a PFT scenario I am displacing someone. I have taken a position to gain moer hours at less money than a pilot group may do so. I see absolutely no problem with someone walking in a resume for me or another individual. If I have networked to get that walkin resume, I would not feel in any way sorry for the others who could not get it done. We all know Doug's motto, Network !, Network !, Network !. I would say these two scenarios are like comparing apples to oranges.
 

powerlifter

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1) How is PFT any different from having a resume walked in? It will definitely displace qualified pilots. What makes using a personal connection to get a job any different from using money to get a job? In both cases, you're greasing the skids in order to land a job you probably wouldn't be able to attain otherwise.



[/ QUOTE ]

If I was to walkin/email a resume I still gained my hours in what many see as a more favorable way. I would not see that as displacnig more qualified pilots. If I gained my hours/job through a PFT scenario I am displacing someone. I have taken a position to gain moer hours at less money than a pilot group may do so. I see absolutely no problem with someone walking in a resume for me or another individual. If I have networked to get that walkin resume, I would not feel in any way sorry for the others who could not get it done. We all know Doug's motto, Network !, Network !, Network !. I would say these two scenarios are like comparing apples to oranges.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if you gained your hours without resorting to PFT, by having your resume walked in, you're giving yourself an advantage over pilots who are more qualified than you are (unless you're the best applicant). Of course, if you are the best applicant, there wouldn't be much of a need to have your resume walked in. I argue that this sort of behavior does displace highly-qualified pilots.
 

DE727UPS

Well-Known Member
Powerlifter. I can't really argue with the points you make. Favoritism plays a role in all jobs and life in general...no one said life is fair....

At UPS, no one gets an interview unless they are recommended by another UPS pilot. While I'm sure you would say this is unfair, it's a common practice and a great way to weed out thousands of applications. Networking is an important part of aviation career advancement and will always be. You can bitch about the system all you want but you aren't going to change it. It's easier to just play the game the way it's set up than to try and change the rules....

After being successful in the PACE program, you are offered a line number at union airline. Mesa want's you to stay and be a Captain eventually. Gulfstream doesn't want you to stay cause they need to keep the seat open for more revenue enhancing copilots.
 

hammer

New Member
In some ways, PFT is pretty similar to what you see in other industries ....

Medical students are paid very low to perform in jobs that could be filled with physicians.

Graduate students are paid to act as TA's in the classroom over professors.

You could make a pretty long list ... it boils down to economics. It's cheaper for some of these "airlines" to support a PFT program over going out and hiring more qualified pilots that are going to demand a salary and benefits.
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
[ QUOTE ]
1) How is PFT any different from having a resume walked in? It will definitely displace qualified pilots. What makes using a personal connection to get a job any different from using money to get a job? In both cases, you're greasing the skids in order to land a job you probably wouldn't be able to attain otherwise.


[/ QUOTE ]

A walked-in resume is not a guaranteed job. The resume still has to have the right numbers on it. It still has to go through the hiring board and then YOU have to pass interviews background checks, etc. ad nauseum. PFT you are paying someone to work for them. You receive no salary, no benefits no compensation other than "flight time" for any and all work you perform. That's just insane.

[ QUOTE ]
2) How is PFT any different than going through a training program with a "guaranteed" interview (MAPD, PACE, etc.)? From what I understand, if you've got the interview, you've got the job. This displaces other pilots who weren't willing to spend the extra cash to attend a school with the guaranteed interview, even though their ratings are just as good. Displacement aside, graduating into that sort of a regional airline (v. low salary) lowers the market rate for pilots.


[/ QUOTE ]

Just because the big, glossy ads in "Flying" say they guarantee you an interview it, in reality, means nothing. An interview can be nothing more than a "hi, thanks for the resume. Contact us in X hours." or an actual interview. It still comes down to the pilot to land the job and have the right numbers on the resume. Those school can legally guarantee you nothing. You might get a shot at an interview but that is about it. PFT is paying to ride around in a seat that could other wise be occupied by a paid pilot. That's it.
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
[ QUOTE ]
Medical students are paid very low to perform in jobs that could be filled with physicians.
Graduate students are paid to act as TA's in the classroom over professors.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the difference is those positions are paid. Medical interns do not PAY the hospital to be an intern. Grad students don't PAY the university to be a TA. The pay for those positions might suck but at least they are paid positions.

PFT is the exact opposite. You pay someone else for the "privilege" of working for them.
 

JEP

Malko In Charge
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
by having your resume walked in, you're giving yourself an advantage over pilots who are more qualified than you are (unless you're the best applicant). Of course, if you are the best applicant, there wouldn't be much of a need to have your resume walked in. I argue that this sort of behavior does displace highly-qualified pilots.

[/ QUOTE ]
While I may have an advantage over the group as a whole, I would not say say I am displacing more qualified pilots. We all know there are certain mins. that need to be reached. If pilot A and Pilot B both meet the mins and "a" has his resume walked in and Pilot "C" who walked it in has flown with "A" before then it is tough luck for Pilot "B". Now If "A" does not meet the mins and gets hired before "B" then I am displacing someone otherwise, it is too bad for "B". I have a hard time believing that UPS or anyone for that matter would hire a less qualified (not meeting mins) pilot over someone else because the resume was walked in. It is a weeding out process and if HR can have someone help them in the process, good for "A" and too bad for "B".
 

stuckingfk

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
PFT is the exact opposite. You pay someone else for the "privilege" of working for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

A company will probably never do this, but what if they allowed to person to sit in the right seat for free, not paid but not having to pay to sit there. Then what you think of that?
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
I think the difference is the fact that you have three equally qualified pilots looking for that one job, but someone with a license with wet ink walks up and cuts a check for $12,000.

The company says, "hmm, experienced pilot who may question the dispatcher going a little light on the fuel" or "a phat $12,000 check from a pilot with less experience that we'd have an easier time pushing around until he clues in".

"Ahh, my friend, I'll need two forms of ID!"
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
Wait ... management would actually take advantage of a pilot!? Force the bottomline over safety!? Take money from someone they should - by all accounts - pay!?

I just don't believe it.
 

TheWife

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
A company will probably never do this, but what if they allowed to person to sit in the right seat for free, not paid but not having to pay to sit there. Then what you think of that?

[/ QUOTE ]I was thinking the same thing. I mean, I can see if they want to let you on for free, but to make you pay them to do their work, I think is taking advantage of people who really want to be pilots. If there was a way to stop this completely I would be all for it. But unless it ALL stops people are going to continue to pay for the training. I don't fault the pilots, I fault the companies.
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
Absolutely.

It's basic supply and demand.

The supply is low, the demand is high but there are enough pilots with the ability to loan money from mom and dad to fork it over to EagleJet or Gulfstream to get a 'head start' on a career.

DON'T DO IT!!

You're selling out this profession, you're selling out yourself.

I feel so strongly that if one of my FO's was one of the PFT variety that plunked down $20,000 for a right seat job at XYZ AIrlines, and then somehow got hired by Delta, there's not much I'd want to hear besides the checklist.
 

JEP

Malko In Charge
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
I don't fault the pilots, I fault the companies.

[/ QUOTE ]
They need to share the blame equally. The companies would not be allowed to do it if there were not pilots willing to do so.
 

TheWife

New Member
Ok. True. I fault the companies who came up with this stupid idea and the pilots who buy into it. But at the same time I understand why a pilot would see it as appealing because if others are doing it and getting jobs because they have such experience, you almost have to, just so you are also competetive. Just like the people who have a resume walked in for them. Since that's how it works, you pretty much have to have some one walk yours in cause you need to stand out from the people who couldn't get theirs walked in. So I don't blame pilots who feel like they have to in order to compete with the other pilots who already have. That's why I say it would take a complete end to the practice, it's not as simple as just telling every one not to do it by word of mouth.
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
Believe me, if I leased an A320 to do vacation charters, got a type rating and then advertised "500 hours of A320 for $19,999", I bet you I could probably fly to the FAA limit with people willing to sell their souls for 500 hours of A320 time.

Ooh!

Umm, nah.
 

jonnyb

Well-Known Member
Powerlifter,

No offense dude, but you're way off base
. Your assessment of these issues is incorrect. Like what was said earlier, you are comparing apples to oranges. The two jobs I've applied for so far in this business, I have benefited from the help of having my resume walked in. I got both jobs. This was not because I couldn't have obtained the position on my own. It's because I really wanted the jobs and I did what it took to have the most advantage. How you are comparing this to PFT is beyond me.


Regardless, networking and internal referrals are common practice in most fields. That's the way the world works and that's how it is. PFT is looked down upon for good reasons and internal referrals, such as having a resume walked in, are not looked upon in a negative light. That explains it right there. Any further analysis of this topic would be beating a dead horse,,,,in my opinion.
 

hammer

New Member
[ QUOTE ]


But the difference is those positions are paid. Medical interns do not PAY the hospital to be an intern. Grad students don't PAY the university to be a TA. The pay for those positions might suck but at least they are paid positions.

PFT is the exact opposite. You pay someone else for the "privilege" of working for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure they do ... I was a grad student and almost became a medical student. Graduate students pay tuition but get a little back when they TA. Medical students pay even more and get even less back when during their rotations (less than $10 an hour in pay with the national average of $105,000 in student loans owed upon graduation and entry into your residency). Gulfstream "pays" their pilots after they train in their program. It's no different.

Don't get me wrong ... I'm not condoning the practice and haven't ever (and wouldn't ever) participated in PFT. But, I can't say I wouldn't consider using it if I was the CEO of a struggling airline. Economically, it makes sense.
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
Aviation, without pay for training, is a lot like the medical field.

I easily plunked down $100K-plus for college, flight training, living expenses, etc.

After graduating in 93:

My gross earnings (very approx. but +/- $1000):
93: $8000 A little corporate/CFI
94: $8000 CFI
95: $9000 CFI
96: $14000 1900 FO
97: $15000 1900 FO/CA
98: $24000 727 SO on probation
 

Eagle

New Member
as unpopular a position as it is,

Everyone *PAYS* for training.

be it flying a C-150 for 7$ an hour CFI, or taking a FO in a 135 op for 20k, or even the new regional FO at 15.5k...

All are underpaid.

The difference between what they are paid and what they should be paid is PFT... maybe PFE is a better term the E is experience...

People pay all the time cash or otherwise.

And not supportive of it nor dismissive of PFT/E, but in the 135 jet world No one would care or even notice. you get hired because you meet the minimums they need, you are not a total dickwad, you fit the company image (if they have one) and because someone knows you.

Period.
 
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