Here Come the Guns (doo doo doo doo)

WillNotFly4Food

Well-Known Member
Looks like Saturday is the day...

Only two of the 48 commercial airline pilots in the first class being trained to carry guns in the cockpit failed to make it through the early days of a rigorous course at a federal facility.

More of the pilots may wash out by Saturday, when those who passed the course are sworn in as federal flight deck officers under a program approved by Congress. They could be armed while flying as early as Sunday.

``These drills are tough, are hard, are good,'' said Capt. Steve Luckey, a retired pilot who is chairman of the Air Line Pilots Association's national security committee.

Luckey, who lobbied hard to let pilots have guns, came to the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center to watch sweaty, bruised and bleeding pilots practice how to fend off an armed attacker. The center trains agents and officers for some 70 federal agencies.

Luckey and other pilots say they are delighted with the training developed by the Bush administration, which at first opposed arming pilots as potentially dangerous and disruptive _ reasons also cited by the airlines.

The Transportation Security Administration, which runs the course, would not say why the two pilots did not make the grade. Agency spokesman Robert Johnson gave some examples of how pilots could fail: not finishing the training or passing psychological tests that might indicate a pilot would have trouble killing another person.

Luckey described the course, which began Monday, as learning to fight and shoot in the confines of a cockpit, which he likened to a phone booth.

Ivan Kalister, who heads the agency's specialized training, said the pilots are excellent students. ``If we give them the basic tools, they will be able to respond well if they're attacked,'' he said.

Some pilots had blisters on their trigger fingers from shooting 8,000 rounds from their semiautomatic pistols Wednesday night. Most had at least a cut, bruise or lump from one-on-one exercises in hitting and grappling with play-acting terrorists.

Many of the pilots chosen for the program are familiar with guns because they had worked in law enforcement or the military. But some were picked because they were unfamiliar with guns.

The government decided on men and women of a variety of ages, backgrounds and sizes to put the training itself to a test. The next class is set for July.

The number of pilots certified to carry guns will depend on pilots' interest and the money available for training.

Capt. Fred Bates, an American Airlines pilot who helped put the program in place, said as many as a third of U.S. pilots _ about 30,000 _ could be carrying weapons on the flight deck in five years.

Their airline may not know they are training to carry a gun because failing could affect their job. Once they are sworn in, they will have to tell their employers, but they will not be required to fly with a weapon every time they get in the cockpit.

Already, pilots are wanting to change a rule that they must store their weapons in a locked case when they leave the cockpit, even to use the restroom.

AP
 

ed207063

New Member
Personally, I'm all for pilots having a way to defend themselves/passengers/airplane in the event of a hijacking. However, the I find idea of having small metal projectiles traveling at 2000 ft./sec. bouncing around a 1/2" thick aluminum tube a wee bit disconcerting. There has to be a safer alternative that still allows the crew to use substantial force against an intruder, but still keeps everyone else on board safe. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
 

sbav8r

New Member
I believe they are using rounds that explode on contact. They will not penetrate the aircraft but do substantial damage to a human body.
 

kostcoguy

New Member
yeah rubber bullets i think would be the best, it would keep the person injured for long enough for people to jump on him.
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
Or, I dunno, maybe we could institute a real security system for screening passengers?

I mean the Tremendously Stupid A$$h*les, Terminally Screwed Assistants, Two Spuds Army, Tards Searching Around or whatever they are called (TSA) is doing a spectacular job of harrasing flight crews and letting people walk right through the screening points but doing a not so great job at actually securing the airline system.
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
Can I hold my gun to the side like they do in the ghetto and say stuff like "S'up, chump? Wan' some lead from my gatt?"
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
[ QUOTE ]
"S'up, chump? Wan' some lead from my gatt? Thank you for flying DAL!"

[/ QUOTE ]

Corrected!
 

Timbuff10

Well-Known Member
Tards Searching Around... HA, that is the best one i have heard so far, and it is becoming increasingly true! The retention rate of the "more educated, higher paid (untrue) screeners" is not looking too good.

It is quickly becoming the same thing that was there before just in a different uniform.

Tim
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
.40 Caliber is all I know - don't know brand.

(Not familiar with what cal. the DE is - is it a .45?)
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
.40 Caliber is all I know - don't know brand.

(Not familiar with what cal. the DE is - is it a .45?)

[/ QUOTE ]

DE is .357/.41/.44/.50

Probably they're using Glock 22/23
 

sopdan

Well-Known Member
I agree that they'll probably use Glocks, but I'd say that it'd be more like the 23 or 27, the fullsize 22 just seems like it'd be too big. Air marshals use Sig 229's in .357 Sig, so I don't think pilots will have the same. Of course, we are kind of talking about the government here, so anything is possible.


As far as bullets flying at 2,000 ft/sec - try more like 1,000 ft/sec.


Dan
 

chunk75

Well-Known Member
Glock's are less likely to be used because of the lack of external safety. Sorry guys, but a mini-trigger on the trigger doesn't count!


Sig Sauer's are a likely candidate. I'd carry one. That or an H&K USP. I'd stay far away from "desert eagle". As far as ammo, FAM's are carrying Hydrashocks. If you have to put someone down, put someone down, damnit!

Chunk
 

davetheflyer

New Member
The main drawback that I see is that, according to USA Today, while the first class was totally free for the participants, future FFDO applicants will be out of pocket over $6,000 including weapon, food, and board.

And Ed, they didn't mention the specific weapon or ammunition, but they did say that the type of round used would inflict maximum damage to the bad guy, but would not go all the way through his body.
 

sopdan

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Glock's are less likely to be used because of the lack of external safety. Sorry guys, but a mini-trigger on the trigger doesn't count!


Sig Sauer's are a likely candidate. I'd carry one. That or an H&K USP. I'd stay far away from "desert eagle". As far as ammo, FAM's are carrying Hydrashocks. If you have to put someone down, put someone down, damnit!

Chunk

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your points. I only said Glocks b/c apparently thats what someone else (that I trust to identify a Glock) saw some of the trainees using. They could also put in the NY trigger for safety.

That being said, I'd go for the Sig if I had the choice. I'm 100% sure they won't use Desert Eagles. But if its not standardized (which I doubt), you could see some Baby Eagles.

Dan
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
Glock's are less likely to be used because of the lack of external safety. Sorry guys, but a mini-trigger on the trigger doesn't count!


Sig Sauer's are a likely candidate. I'd carry one. That or an H&K USP. I'd stay far away from "desert eagle". As far as ammo, FAM's are carrying Hydrashocks. If you have to put someone down, put someone down, damnit!

Chunk

[/ QUOTE ]

Glock isn't a bad weapon. Who cares about the external safety, the Glock is a law enforcement standard in many places. Though I'm no big lover of Glock pistols, I do acknowlege their widespread use.

What don't you like about the Desert Eagle? Other than it's somewhat impractical for use as a CQB weapon?

SIG 228 wouldn't be a bad choice either.

MD
 
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