Helicopter crash in NYC

NovemberEcho

Dergs favorite member
Let me qualify that better:

I'm not trying to criticize the pilot, I was referring to the comments made after the fact about how crashing into a building made him a hero. I won't speculate further beyond that because we don't know what caused it, although VFR into IFC is probably a fairly accurate guess.
I would say a non-instrument rated pilot taking off in these conditions to begin with is grounds for criticism.
 

Yakob

Grand Prognosticator Nominee
This may come as a shock to you, but the Times is actually a New York City newspaper, and not a Joplin, MO newspaper. It’s for sale in outlets across the country because of the quality of the journalism, not because it’s your town’s newspaper. Not sure why anyone would be surprised, much less perturbed, that the Times pays more attention to what happens in NY. But sure, by all means, be offended and snowflake-ish about it. That is the modern way, it seems.
So for chits and giggles I googled the NYT’s coverage of the Joplin, MO tornado. It’s behind a paywall so I can’t read the articles but they ran articles every day for at least a week following the storm, including several front page, and several follow ups on the 1 year anniversary. They also had had articles in the preceding days covering the storms in the area that spawned the Joplin tornado. But yeah, it’s more fun to just bash the NY liberal fake news media than rely on what actually happened.
Let's not let facts get in the way of some nice manufactured victimhood. How bizarre that the New York Times reporting on a fatal accident in, well, New York is somehow an attack on "real Americans". It's not that Trump's base is told they don't matter (if anything the media seems to give them plenty of attention and go out of their way to paint Trump supporters as victims); rather they resent the fact that they're not the only people who do matter.

Don't even get me started on the delta between the initial reaction to Katrina vs. Sandy.
I seem to recall a huge amount of media coverage on Katrina. Sandy was both the strongest and deadliest Atlantic hurricane in the 2012 season, so it seems reasonable it should have gotten plenty of coverage as well. Of course Katrina did have a higher death toll, but then much of that was thanks to the blunders of the local authorities and the Texas Republican President at the time (perhaps they all slept through that one as well?), so it's hard to see how the evil NYC liberals are to blame.
 

Baronman

Well-Known Member
I don't know much about helicopters but the Agusta 109 looks pretty complex...Retractable gear, twin turbine etc...Barring the case of a private owner/operator, wouldn't most pilots flying it in and out of NY heliports be instrument rated?

An interesting aside...A few weeks ago we were holding short of 22R at JFK for takeoff, and a Helo to the N was asking for an ILS approach with tower. Raised an eyebrow...
 

NovemberEcho

Dergs favorite member
I don't know much about helicopters but the Agusta 109 looks pretty complex...Retractable gear, twin turbine etc...Barring the case of a private owner/operator, wouldn't most pilots flying it in and out of NY heliports be instrument rated?

An interesting aside...A few weeks ago we were holding short of 22R at JFK for takeoff, and a Helo to the N was asking for an ILS approach with tower. Raised an eyebrow...
We get helo’s doing ILS into TEB all the time. 50/50 they land at TEB or ride the approach til they’re below the clouds and break off vfr for the city. Most aren’t too bad and will give you 140kts down final but others crawl along at 70kts and ruin your day
 

Lawman

Well-Known Member
I don't know much about helicopters but the Agusta 109 looks pretty complex...Retractable gear, twin turbine etc...Barring the case of a private owner/operator, wouldn't most pilots flying it in and out of NY heliports be instrument rated?

An interesting aside...A few weeks ago we were holding short of 22R at JFK for takeoff, and a Helo to the N was asking for an ILS approach with tower. Raised an eyebrow...
It would probably surprise you the vast seemingly clueless approach to instrument performance seems across the breadth of helicopter fleets.

Probably the best equipped constituently are the coastal oil shuttles working in the gulf, and that’s more a recent thing. Meanwhile a host of aircraft operated by civilian firms, air ambulance services, and even the US military have helicopters that are completely incapable of anything but an emergency IFR approach procedure and due to such the pilots operating them are woefully behind on comfort level to execute instrument procedures.




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MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
We get helo’s doing ILS into TEB all the time. 50/50 they land at TEB or ride the approach til they’re below the clouds and break off vfr for the city. Most aren’t too bad and will give you 140kts down final but others crawl along at 70kts and ruin your day
Helicopter IFR is no different than any other IFR, with the exception that many helos just don’t do it on a regular basis. It should be no problem to come down final in most helicopters Astar or larger at ~120+, and slow once at DH for landing on the runway, taxiway, or wherever tower clears them to on the field. If there’s no need to fit in with other traffic (no traffic around), then 90kts is comfortable for an approach as its just less speed to have to bleed off when breaking out on short final.
 

Low&Slow

Ancora imparo
I call them Hangaroos because they are constantly breaking.
The only reason our pilots can fly them is because of our skilled maintenance teams.
 

Lawman

Well-Known Member
Did not know that. Seems like that would be an important part of the process. Let's see what changes occur from this.
You have to understand the history of helicopters as a community of aviators.

Most of the mentality up until modern easily purchased electronics has been “you operate close to the ground, so if it’s bad just land.” That was for the military as well as civil the decades long way things were. Only select few helicopters were equipped to even do instruments much less had a cadre of pilots outflowing to other aircraft pushing for it.

It was and still in some places is not uncommon to find guys with >4K hours who will have a single digit at best in the W column of their logbook. Those guys were the norm in the 70s/80s when legislation was being formed. Those guys told the group what was important, and it wasn’t instrument training because “when would I actually use this.”

Even aided flight with NVGs has been fought against by some any anybody with any experience flying both ways will tell you with helicopters it’s critical. It was only the outflow of a lot of experience military aviators over the last 20 years when it became common for them that the push for goggles started to hit the civilian helicopter industry.


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USMCmech

Well-Known Member
Did not know that. Seems like that would be an important part of the process. Let's see what changes occur from this.
What good is an instrument rating if a pilot never uses it?

95% of the helicopters flying are not certified for IFR (at least not single pilot). So, you get a rating that you never use and are no where near current in, what's the point? At least this was the thinking of the FAA when they made the rules for helicopter pilot.

These days, most helicopter pilots study and earn their their instrument rating after PPL while time building for their CPL just like fixed wing pilots do. The theory is that if they ever run into low IMC, they can climb, declare an emergency, and get vectored to the nearest approach. Even in a non certified (but IFR equipped) ship like a R-44, a pilot should be able to find his way home.


I'm a CPL helicopter, but don't have an instrument rating in rotary wing aircraft (obviously I do for fixed wing). I'll get that someday, but for now my fixed wing IMC time leaves me confident that I could fly ing the clouds if I needed to.
 
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