Has PBS ever...

mrivc211

Well-Known Member
If you don't know how to bid, PBS will shaft you every time. When we used to bid the old way, the lines were pre built on a piece of paper and you just picked the line you wanted in top ranking order so you couldn't mess up. (unless you were a new hire and didn't know you ended up being awarded a senior line because everyone above you bid avoided a certain jerk captain, worst part was you were stuck with him all month)
 

Eagle421flyer

Well-Known Member
Trip and duty rigs don’t “pay pilots to not work” but rather incentivize the airline to not waste pilots’ time by building them 14 hour 4 day trips.
I'm on a 17 hour 4 day right now, it's not really worth going to work for tbh.
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
I'm on a 17 hour 4 day right now, it's not really worth going to work for tbh.
Yeah. Lots of airlines/bases/fleets don't have enough size to generate good pairings. You can have a super expensive rig and if the flying isn't there, the company will just end up paying it out and you'll still have a crappy trip. The good news (with PBS) is that the 17 block hour 4 may generate a whole lot more credit and get you out of flying an extra trip in the month.

Our 5 day trips (Brisbane, Auckland, Inchon, and Chitose) are simply due to the fact that we don't go there daily and somebody has to sit out the two days there are no flights. Prior to "fixing" our rig from 1:4 to 1:3.5, those trips went super junior (except CTS during ski season) because you'd have to work a whole lot in month to get a line. With the change in the rig, they went very senior as 1 trip is almost 28 hours of credit. The benefit of that is twofold. First, the guys flying those trips get more days off at home and can still go ski/surf, and second, the "nice" 3 day Japan and 2 day west coast trips those senior guys had been bidding before, drop down the PBS ladder to more junior pilots.
 

This is My Screen Name

Well-Known Member
Trip and duty rigs don’t “pay pilots to not work” but rather incentivize the airline to not waste pilots’ time by building them 14 hour 4 day trips.
Might want to reread what I said, you got it backwards. While it also does what you say it's also paying the pilots who are at work.
 

This is My Screen Name

Well-Known Member
Yeah. Lots of airlines/bases/fleets don't have enough size to generate good pairings. You can have a super expensive rig and if the flying isn't there, the company will just end up paying it out and you'll still have a crappy trip. The good news (with PBS) is that the 17 block hour 4 may generate a whole lot more credit and get you out of flying an extra trip in the month.

Our 5 day trips (Brisbane, Auckland, Inchon, and Chitose) are simply due to the fact that we don't go there daily and somebody has to sit out the two days there are no flights. Prior to "fixing" our rig from 1:4 to 1:3.5, those trips went super junior (except CTS during ski season) because you'd have to work a whole lot in month to get a line. With the change in the rig, they went very senior as 1 trip is almost 28 hours of credit. The benefit of that is twofold. First, the guys flying those trips get more days off at home and can still go ski/surf, and second, the "nice" 3 day Japan and 2 day west coast trips those senior guys had been bidding before, drop down the PBS ladder to more junior pilots.
Case in point of exactly why I'm adamant about rigs. If you have good rigs the actual trip you are on doesn't really matter. I honestly cannot fathom any possible reason why a pilot would argue against rigs.
 

nibake

Powder hound
I met your NC chairman a few weeks ago. Smart guy, and knows what he doesn't know. The issue he (and the rest of your group) faces is that the flights that have to be covered don't lead to efficient pairings, even with a rockstar optimizer. Just the nature of regional flying, especially on the east coast where airports are all 100 miles apart.

Instead of specific wants (which can lead to disappointment later on when you don't get them) start trying to balance the More Money, More Time Off equation. Remember that with PBS, credit is king as far as getting days off goes. To get a line (at least if you are above the unstack percentage, you just need to hit the monthly min credit number.

Something like a high trip rig is nice, bit can you accomplish the same thing with a min day? Or the other way around? What about months with training or vacation? If your gurentee is 75 hours and you get 12 days off min, a 4 hour per day vacation or training credit means you won't hit 75 hours in a month of just that. What's more important in the mmmto equation? If it's money, you waive days off and work more. If it's time off you take less than 75 for min guarantee.

One thing I told your nc chair was that it's much easier to negotiate like things (ie: things that relate to pbs) at the same time. For example... this is a good time to go after 100% DH (although to be fair we should have got it in 2012) as there is a ton of deadheading and that directly effects your credit build.
I wish I understand the language you're speaking.
 

Eagle421flyer

Well-Known Member
Yeah. Lots of airlines/bases/fleets don't have enough size to generate good pairings. You can have a super expensive rig and if the flying isn't there, the company will just end up paying it out and you'll still have a crappy trip. The good news (with PBS) is that the 17 block hour 4 may generate a whole lot more credit and get you out of flying an extra trip in the month.
This is with PBS, our trips in general are crappy low hour trips. My wife's had quite a few 14 hour two days, she laughs (a lot) when she see's what my trips are worth.
 

chrisreedrules

Master Blaster
Case in point of exactly why I'm adamant about rigs. If you have good rigs the actual trip you are on doesn't really matter. I honestly cannot fathom any possible reason why a pilot would argue against rigs.
Of course pilots are for rigs. I was just making the argument above for why the company would be a, “hard No” on them. I’m for rigs. I just know that PSA can only do so much with the flying being given.

I wouldn’t be surprised if they offer up something like doubling the flow and some other minor improvements and that’s it. We all have a long list of wants but we aren’t negotiating a new contract yet. So we’ll let the NC and the PBS group work and see what they come out with.
 

Cruise

Well-Known Member
This is with PBS, our trips in general are crappy low hour trips. My wife's had quite a few 14 hour two days, she laughs (a lot) when she see's what my trips are worth.
That's very base dependent; good trips are out in the system, but they may not be in every base. I worked 3 25+ hour 4-days last month. Not too shabby!

FWIW, I've been very pleased with the changeover from line bidding to PBS. Granted we have decent language (yes, our reserve rules went way too far in the wrong direction...different conversation) and a decent PBS system (NavBlue) to support my position. Others' mileage may vary.
 

This is My Screen Name

Well-Known Member
Of course pilots are for rigs. I was just making the argument above for why the company would be a, “hard No” on them. I’m for rigs. I just know that PSA can only do so much with the flying being given.

I wouldn’t be surprised if they offer up something like doubling the flow and some other minor improvements and that’s it. We all have a long list of wants but we aren’t negotiating a new contract yet. So we’ll let the NC and the PBS group work and see what they come out with.
Saying its a hard no is looking at it all wrong.

It behooves the company to do it because more people will be more apt to pick up open time or just not adding to the open time with SAP as suddenly these trips are worthwhile. Combined with the lack of conflict drops from a PBS system we could get by with a lot less reserves and that's a good thing.

While it is a form of pay protection for the pilot it benefits the company just as much if not more. Saying its only a positive for pilots is self defeating. For the company (or Devils advocate argument) to not recognize the basic fact that if you pay people they will work - our holiday pay contracts have proven that time and time again - that is just being patently obtuse.

Doubling the flow would however definitely get my attention.
 

Eagle421flyer

Well-Known Member
That's very base dependent; good trips are out in the system, but they may not be in every base. I worked 3 25+ hour 4-days last month. Not too shabby!

FWIW, I've been very pleased with the changeover from line bidding to PBS. Granted we have decent language (yes, our reserve rules went way too far in the wrong direction...different conversation) and a decent PBS system (NavBlue) to support my position. Others' mileage may vary.
Wow that’s a really good 4 day for us. I’m not a fan of pbs but my crappy 4 day can’t be blamed on that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
I remember at Virgin we had some 31 hr 4-day trips. Each day a transcon with a short leg attached.

Example:
JFK-SFO-LAX
LAX-SFO-BOS
BOS-SFO-SAN
SAN-SFO-JFK
 

adk

Steals Hotel Toilet Paper
Might want to reread what I said, you got it backwards. While it also does what you say it's also paying the pilots who are at work.
OK, you're right, I misread. I meant to address what you had said about min day:

Min day is asking to be paid for not working in some cases
Min day doesn't “pay pilots to not work” but rather incentivizes the airline to not waste pilots’ time by building them 14 hour 4 day trips.
 

chrisreedrules

Master Blaster
My best was 20 off 93hr line, purely 8.5hr day trips with no soft time. It was wonderful, but FO pay
Most time I ever managed to have off in an average month (no vacation usage etc) I think was 22 or 23 days and about 65 credit.

These days I’m averaging around 13-14 off and usually around 90-95 block and 105-110 credit. Gotta pull back the pace at some point though...
 

This is My Screen Name

Well-Known Member
OK, you're right, I misread. I meant to address what you had said about min day:



Min day doesn't “pay pilots to not work” but rather incentivizes the airline to not waste pilots’ time by building them 14 hour 4 day trips.
No biggie on the first part. Our Min Day carve outs would argue otherwise on the second part. Now mind you I'm just trying to figure the mind of an employer (which I've been myself). As a pilot I'll be glad to have a min day with no carve outs. Since trip rigs are directly related to TAFB then it is absolutely paying someone to be at work/working. Bring the 6 am in from Myrtle Beach to Charlotte on the last day and home drinking beer by 9 am and collecting a min day is effectively being paid to not be at work. Again, I'm not personally against taking that money but with the right salesman making the pitch a trip rig should make more sense to an employer if you play the at work/working aspect against the not at work aspect. At the end of the day IMHO a good duty and trip rig benefits the whole pilot group better than the one lucky guy that collects a min day for flying one leg. Its a mental/psychology thing - the company doesn't care about wasting a pilot's time. Incentivizing whatever gets people to show up to work and pay those people that are working (rigs) should not be a hard sell at all.
 

Maurus

The Great Gazoo
I have a feeling that PBS is a long ways off at PSA unless management offers up some big changes soon.
 

adk

Steals Hotel Toilet Paper
No biggie on the first part. Our Min Day carve outs would argue otherwise on the second part. Now mind you I'm just trying to figure the mind of an employer (which I've been myself). As a pilot I'll be glad to have a min day with no carve outs. Since trip rigs are directly related to TAFB then it is absolutely paying someone to be at work/working. Bring the 6 am in from Myrtle Beach to Charlotte on the last day and home drinking beer by 9 am and collecting a min day is effectively being paid to not be at work. Again, I'm not personally against taking that money but with the right salesman making the pitch a trip rig should make more sense to an employer if you play the at work/working aspect against the not at work aspect. At the end of the day IMHO a good duty and trip rig benefits the whole pilot group better than the one lucky guy that collects a min day for flying one leg. Its a mental/psychology thing - the company doesn't care about wasting a pilot's time. Incentivizing whatever gets people to show up to work and pay those people that are working (rigs) should not be a hard sell at all.
This hypothetical trip you outline would probably not exist under a hard min day (possibly could exist under a min day averaged over the trip). Having min day incentivizes the airline to add another turn after the pilot gets to Charlotte. Again, it’s all about incentivizing the company to not waste the pilot’s time by paying him 1 hour for a day of work.
 
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