Frontier

NickH

Dank Meme
My guess is, sadly, yes. Probably with about 70%. People see the increase in pay, and don't plan to be there for more than a few more years. They're thinking short term rather than career. Just like Spirit, a lacklustre contract now means more money in their pockets before they move on.
 

xdashdriver

Well-Known Member
Here's what I put together for bullet points. Mostly highlighting the changes from current book. I'm sure I missed a few things but the biggest stuff should be covered.

Scope
- Pretty significant improvements in language, tightening things up, closing some loopholes.

Compensation
- Very similar to Spirit DOS+1 rates at the start, but with 3% raises in years 4 and 5.
- Maintain 125% override at 82+ hours of credit (not counting sick or training time)
- True block or better leg-by-leg. A couple of bad arbitration decisions in the past had whittled away at this, but now the language is strong. Lots of examples written into language to prevent interpretation issues.
- Training pay goes from 4 to 4.5 hours per day, however we gave up getting pay protected for dropped flying for months in which you bid for ground school. Company assigned training will still be paid on the basis of dropped trips.
- Trip rig from 1:3.75 to 1:3.5
- Added 5 hr minimum average duty period
- Per Diem $2.00 with 5c raises every year until amendable date
- Reassignment or delays into a day off will generate 5 hours of add pay past 2am on the day off. If reassignment or delay continues beyond 4pm on day off, 5 hours add pay plus a vacation day will be awarded.
- Declared irregular ops will see ALL open time system wide during the DIO period placed into the 150% premium folder.
- Declined FDP extensions will be paid (company attempted multiple times to drop credit for the leg if you declined an extension)
- Fatigue calls will be paid if the FRC deems it company-induced. Pilot-induced fatigue will result in credit drop for affected flights.
- New language regarding widebody pay rate negotiations
- 100% Deadhead pay with additional language regarding seating that wasn’t there before.
- Displacement pay - no longer subject to reassignment and will now receive full pay protection for dropped segments, in addition to any flying picked up over the same time period (currently just the greater of)
- Reassignment pay – if you are reassigned and the reassignment gets back to domicile later than original schedule, that time accrued beyond 3 hours past original arrival time is paid at 150%.

Retirement
- 12% DC at DOS increasing 1% per year to 15% at DOS+4. 100% vested after 3 years service.
- Company contributions over max IRS limits to be paid in cash.

Scheduling
- Added Mini-daily open time. This is an opportunity for line holders to pick over the leftovers of monthly open time processing on a FCFS basis before relief lines get built.(Pre-PBS only)
- PBS coming in around 12 months – Navtech is the vendor. ALPA will have control over the line solution process and greater input into pairing construction (currently they have no input). Disputes during negotiation of PBS language will go to arbitrator who is bound by language to give special consideration to rules at the other Navtech carriers (Delta, Hawaiian, Spirit and JetBlue)
- With PBS will come a minimum 4% opentime pot.
- Maintain current add/drop/swap with opentime including daily drop limits and reserve availability language after PBS
- With PBS vacation days will be worth 5 hours of pre-awarded credit
- An additional 2 inviolate days off can be added around vacation week (option to get paid for the extra days from vacation bank too – almost identical to Spirit)
-Reassignment language and pilot contactibility loosened while on duty. Basically pilots are required to answer their phones during preflight duties and after block in and can be reassigned within original trip footprint.
- Eliminating Voluntary Junior Assignment and Junior Assignment language – company may elect to place open time into a premium folder at 150% and then add whatever incentive hours it wants beyond that to get the trip picked up.
- 14 hr max duty period – 10hr30min for CDOs.
- Company can longer pull you off last leg of the day to deadhead you on the same flight in order to get around max FDP rules. If you time out to operate, you time out to deadhead too. Deadheads count as a leg for Table B purposes.
- Deadheads on first and last legs – added ability to get positive space must ride status to/from any city Frontier serves.
- Pilots may drop down to 60 hours of credit for 6 months. Company determines which months are eligible and publishes list once a year along with vacation bidding.

Reserve
- Eliminating medium call (currently a 10 hour callout)
- Adding Fixed Days Off reserve lines – basically reserve lines with 12 consecutive days off at the beginning, middle or end of the month
- Adding 3x6 reserve lines which consist of 3 groups of 6 RDPs in a row. These lines get a 13th day off in 31 day months.
- Adding half month reserve lines at company discretion – either the first 15 or the last 15 off.
- Reserves will be able to add flying on days off – subject to a well-defined restriction to ensure legality for company assigned trips while on reserve (simulated 3 hrs block and 6 hours FDP per RDP)
- Additional opportunities for reserves to aggressive bid trips that go into days off.
- Reserve flying on days off paid above guarantee
- Reserves cannot drop RDPs below 3 consecutive days.
- 15 days of the year may be designated as premium reserve days which carry an additional 4 hrs credit above guarantee.


Sick Leave
- Current book except buyback now on the basis of one-for-one hours vs just days.

LTD
- Max benefit increased from $5k to $8k. Own occupation for 2 years then any occupation.
- Pilot can elect to be taxed on imputed income on premium with tax free benefit or tax free premium with a taxable benefit.
- Premium 100% paid by company

Hotels
- Long layover hotels at 18+ hours. Implemented over the next 30 months.
- Strong hotel selection language with a list of prohibited budget hotels.
- Company pays for hotel for unscheduled mid-trip layover in domicile

Filling of vacancies
- Captains will now be able to voluntarily bid back to FO but subject to a 2 year freeze.
- New freeze language in the event of additional aircraft types added.
- Added TDY section - 24/7 per diem from day 1 to last day of TDY assignment. Extended stay hotel with kitchen paid for by company and rental car.

Health
- Collars the current medical and dental plans and establishes max pilot contribution percentages (30%)
- Additional child surcharge applicable to 3+ kids instead of 2+
 
Here's what I put together for bullet points. Mostly highlighting the changes from current book. I'm sure I missed a few things but the biggest stuff should be covered.

Scope
- Pretty significant improvements in language, tightening things up, closing some loopholes.

Compensation
- Very similar to Spirit DOS+1 rates at the start, but with 3% raises in years 4 and 5.
- Maintain 125% override at 82+ hours of credit (not counting sick or training time)
- True block or better leg-by-leg. A couple of bad arbitration decisions in the past had whittled away at this, but now the language is strong. Lots of examples written into language to prevent interpretation issues.
- Training pay goes from 4 to 4.5 hours per day, however we gave up getting pay protected for dropped flying for months in which you bid for ground school. Company assigned training will still be paid on the basis of dropped trips.
- Trip rig from 1:3.75 to 1:3.5
- Added 5 hr minimum average duty period
- Per Diem $2.00 with 5c raises every year until amendable date
- Reassignment or delays into a day off will generate 5 hours of add pay past 2am on the day off. If reassignment or delay continues beyond 4pm on day off, 5 hours add pay plus a vacation day will be awarded.
- Declared irregular ops will see ALL open time system wide during the DIO period placed into the 150% premium folder.
- Declined FDP extensions will be paid (company attempted multiple times to drop credit for the leg if you declined an extension)
- Fatigue calls will be paid if the FRC deems it company-induced. Pilot-induced fatigue will result in credit drop for affected flights.
- New language regarding widebody pay rate negotiations
- 100% Deadhead pay with additional language regarding seating that wasn’t there before.
- Displacement pay - no longer subject to reassignment and will now receive full pay protection for dropped segments, in addition to any flying picked up over the same time period (currently just the greater of)
- Reassignment pay – if you are reassigned and the reassignment gets back to domicile later than original schedule, that time accrued beyond 3 hours past original arrival time is paid at 150%.

Retirement
- 12% DC at DOS increasing 1% per year to 15% at DOS+4. 100% vested after 3 years service.
- Company contributions over max IRS limits to be paid in cash.

Scheduling
- Added Mini-daily open time. This is an opportunity for line holders to pick over the leftovers of monthly open time processing on a FCFS basis before relief lines get built.(Pre-PBS only)
- PBS coming in around 12 months – Navtech is the vendor. ALPA will have control over the line solution process and greater input into pairing construction (currently they have no input). Disputes during negotiation of PBS language will go to arbitrator who is bound by language to give special consideration to rules at the other Navtech carriers (Delta, Hawaiian, Spirit and JetBlue)
- With PBS will come a minimum 4% opentime pot.
- Maintain current add/drop/swap with opentime including daily drop limits and reserve availability language after PBS
- With PBS vacation days will be worth 5 hours of pre-awarded credit
- An additional 2 inviolate days off can be added around vacation week (option to get paid for the extra days from vacation bank too – almost identical to Spirit)
-Reassignment language and pilot contactibility loosened while on duty. Basically pilots are required to answer their phones during preflight duties and after block in and can be reassigned within original trip footprint.
- Eliminating Voluntary Junior Assignment and Junior Assignment language – company may elect to place open time into a premium folder at 150% and then add whatever incentive hours it wants beyond that to get the trip picked up.
- 14 hr max duty period – 10hr30min for CDOs.
- Company can longer pull you off last leg of the day to deadhead you on the same flight in order to get around max FDP rules. If you time out to operate, you time out to deadhead too. Deadheads count as a leg for Table B purposes.
- Deadheads on first and last legs – added ability to get positive space must ride status to/from any city Frontier serves.
- Pilots may drop down to 60 hours of credit for 6 months. Company determines which months are eligible and publishes list once a year along with vacation bidding.

Reserve
- Eliminating medium call (currently a 10 hour callout)
- Adding Fixed Days Off reserve lines – basically reserve lines with 12 consecutive days off at the beginning, middle or end of the month
- Adding 3x6 reserve lines which consist of 3 groups of 6 RDPs in a row. These lines get a 13th day off in 31 day months.
- Adding half month reserve lines at company discretion – either the first 15 or the last 15 off.
- Reserves will be able to add flying on days off – subject to a well-defined restriction to ensure legality for company assigned trips while on reserve (simulated 3 hrs block and 6 hours FDP per RDP)
- Additional opportunities for reserves to aggressive bid trips that go into days off.
- Reserve flying on days off paid above guarantee
- Reserves cannot drop RDPs below 3 consecutive days.
- 15 days of the year may be designated as premium reserve days which carry an additional 4 hrs credit above guarantee.


Sick Leave
- Current book except buyback now on the basis of one-for-one hours vs just days.

LTD
- Max benefit increased from $5k to $8k. Own occupation for 2 years then any occupation.
- Pilot can elect to be taxed on imputed income on premium with tax free benefit or tax free premium with a taxable benefit.
- Premium 100% paid by company

Hotels
- Long layover hotels at 18+ hours. Implemented over the next 30 months.
- Strong hotel selection language with a list of prohibited budget hotels.
- Company pays for hotel for unscheduled mid-trip layover in domicile

Filling of vacancies
- Captains will now be able to voluntarily bid back to FO but subject to a 2 year freeze.
- New freeze language in the event of additional aircraft types added.
- Added TDY section - 24/7 per diem from day 1 to last day of TDY assignment. Extended stay hotel with kitchen paid for by company and rental car.

Health
- Collars the current medical and dental plans and establishes max pilot contribution percentages (30%)
- Additional child surcharge applicable to 3+ kids instead of 2+

- New language regarding widebody pay rate negotiations.

Interesting.
 

xdashdriver

Well-Known Member
- New language regarding widebody pay rate negotiations.

Interesting.
If I understand correctly, this was ALPA initiated because current book would have allowed the company to add widebodies at our current
narrowbody rates with no clear path to negotiating higher rates outside of section 6. I'm pretty sure the company is not planning on widebodies any time soon :)
 

WaterRooster

Well-Known Member
Here's what I put together for bullet points. Mostly highlighting the changes from current book. I'm sure I missed a few things but the biggest stuff should be covered.

Scope
- Pretty significant improvements in language, tightening things up, closing some loopholes.

Compensation
- Very similar to Spirit DOS+1 rates at the start, but with 3% raises in years 4 and 5.
- Maintain 125% override at 82+ hours of credit (not counting sick or training time)
- True block or better leg-by-leg. A couple of bad arbitration decisions in the past had whittled away at this, but now the language is strong. Lots of examples written into language to prevent interpretation issues.
- Training pay goes from 4 to 4.5 hours per day, however we gave up getting pay protected for dropped flying for months in which you bid for ground school. Company assigned training will still be paid on the basis of dropped trips.
- Trip rig from 1:3.75 to 1:3.5
- Added 5 hr minimum average duty period
- Per Diem $2.00 with 5c raises every year until amendable date
- Reassignment or delays into a day off will generate 5 hours of add pay past 2am on the day off. If reassignment or delay continues beyond 4pm on day off, 5 hours add pay plus a vacation day will be awarded.
- Declared irregular ops will see ALL open time system wide during the DIO period placed into the 150% premium folder.
- Declined FDP extensions will be paid (company attempted multiple times to drop credit for the leg if you declined an extension)
- Fatigue calls will be paid if the FRC deems it company-induced. Pilot-induced fatigue will result in credit drop for affected flights.
- New language regarding widebody pay rate negotiations
- 100% Deadhead pay with additional language regarding seating that wasn’t there before.
- Displacement pay - no longer subject to reassignment and will now receive full pay protection for dropped segments, in addition to any flying picked up over the same time period (currently just the greater of)
- Reassignment pay – if you are reassigned and the reassignment gets back to domicile later than original schedule, that time accrued beyond 3 hours past original arrival time is paid at 150%.

Retirement
- 12% DC at DOS increasing 1% per year to 15% at DOS+4. 100% vested after 3 years service.
- Company contributions over max IRS limits to be paid in cash.

Scheduling
- Added Mini-daily open time. This is an opportunity for line holders to pick over the leftovers of monthly open time processing on a FCFS basis before relief lines get built.(Pre-PBS only)
- PBS coming in around 12 months – Navtech is the vendor. ALPA will have control over the line solution process and greater input into pairing construction (currently they have no input). Disputes during negotiation of PBS language will go to arbitrator who is bound by language to give special consideration to rules at the other Navtech carriers (Delta, Hawaiian, Spirit and JetBlue)
- With PBS will come a minimum 4% opentime pot.
- Maintain current add/drop/swap with opentime including daily drop limits and reserve availability language after PBS
- With PBS vacation days will be worth 5 hours of pre-awarded credit
- An additional 2 inviolate days off can be added around vacation week (option to get paid for the extra days from vacation bank too – almost identical to Spirit)
-Reassignment language and pilot contactibility loosened while on duty. Basically pilots are required to answer their phones during preflight duties and after block in and can be reassigned within original trip footprint.
- Eliminating Voluntary Junior Assignment and Junior Assignment language – company may elect to place open time into a premium folder at 150% and then add whatever incentive hours it wants beyond that to get the trip picked up.
- 14 hr max duty period – 10hr30min for CDOs.
- Company can longer pull you off last leg of the day to deadhead you on the same flight in order to get around max FDP rules. If you time out to operate, you time out to deadhead too. Deadheads count as a leg for Table B purposes.
- Deadheads on first and last legs – added ability to get positive space must ride status to/from any city Frontier serves.
- Pilots may drop down to 60 hours of credit for 6 months. Company determines which months are eligible and publishes list once a year along with vacation bidding.

Reserve
- Eliminating medium call (currently a 10 hour callout)
- Adding Fixed Days Off reserve lines – basically reserve lines with 12 consecutive days off at the beginning, middle or end of the month
- Adding 3x6 reserve lines which consist of 3 groups of 6 RDPs in a row. These lines get a 13th day off in 31 day months.
- Adding half month reserve lines at company discretion – either the first 15 or the last 15 off.
- Reserves will be able to add flying on days off – subject to a well-defined restriction to ensure legality for company assigned trips while on reserve (simulated 3 hrs block and 6 hours FDP per RDP)
- Additional opportunities for reserves to aggressive bid trips that go into days off.
- Reserve flying on days off paid above guarantee
- Reserves cannot drop RDPs below 3 consecutive days.
- 15 days of the year may be designated as premium reserve days which carry an additional 4 hrs credit above guarantee.


Sick Leave
- Current book except buyback now on the basis of one-for-one hours vs just days.

LTD
- Max benefit increased from $5k to $8k. Own occupation for 2 years then any occupation.
- Pilot can elect to be taxed on imputed income on premium with tax free benefit or tax free premium with a taxable benefit.
- Premium 100% paid by company

Hotels
- Long layover hotels at 18+ hours. Implemented over the next 30 months.
- Strong hotel selection language with a list of prohibited budget hotels.
- Company pays for hotel for unscheduled mid-trip layover in domicile

Filling of vacancies
- Captains will now be able to voluntarily bid back to FO but subject to a 2 year freeze.
- New freeze language in the event of additional aircraft types added.
- Added TDY section - 24/7 per diem from day 1 to last day of TDY assignment. Extended stay hotel with kitchen paid for by company and rental car.

Health
- Collars the current medical and dental plans and establishes max pilot contribution percentages (30%)
- Additional child surcharge applicable to 3+ kids instead of 2+
Looking at this, it doesn’t look that bad in comparison to what is currently in place or even to a regional. It also looks oddly familiar to Spirit... right along with dates too
 

Eagle421flyer

Well-Known Member
My guess is, sadly, yes. Probably with about 70%. People see the increase in pay, and don't plan to be there for more than a few more years. They're thinking short term rather than career. Just like Spirit, a lacklustre contract now means more money in their pockets before they move on.
Sad but true you are probably correct. Throw just enough money at people and they will vote for it, exact same thing happened at Spirit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

amichael

Well-Known Member
"The JPWG [Joint PBS Working Group] will work collaboratively and act in good faith to reach mutual agreement on all aspects of PBS, including but not limited to design, testing, training, implementation, and administration."

Relying on Frontier/Indigo to act in good faith. Sounds like a great idea.
 

xdashdriver

Well-Known Member
"The JPWG [Joint PBS Working Group] will work collaboratively and act in good faith to reach mutual agreement on all aspects of PBS, including but not limited to design, testing, training, implementation, and administration."

Relying on Frontier/Indigo to act in good faith. Sounds like a great idea.
That’s pretty much the industry standard way of doing it. Since our PBS LOA specifically gives ALPA control of the software, includes industry leading opentime pot and directs the arbitrator to give special consideration to other major airlines that use Navtech, I think we are in as strong a position as is reasonable to expect.
 

amichael

Well-Known Member
That’s pretty much the industry standard way of doing it. Since our PBS LOA specifically gives ALPA control of the software, includes industry leading opentime pot and directs the arbitrator to give special consideration to other major airlines that use Navtech, I think we are in as strong a position as is reasonable to expect.
There is no PBS language in the TA, just a LOA that they'll collaborate in "good faith" to write it. I don't put a lot of trust in the company that has been found guilty of not acting in good faith. As they say, pay will come and go but work rules are forever.

This TA hinges on a hope and a prayer that PBS is negotiated fairly. All in exchange for industry bottom compensation and improved scope/merger protection. I had higher expectations.
 

xdashdriver

Well-Known Member
There is no PBS language in the TA, just a LOA that they'll collaborate in "good faith" to write it. I don't put a lot of trust in the company that has been found guilty of not acting in good faith. As they say, pay will come and go but work rules are forever.

This TA hinges on a hope and a prayer that PBS is negotiated fairly. All in exchange for industry bottom compensation and improved scope/merger protection. I had higher expectations.
Not sure what you mean by "just a LOA". The language in the LOA is as binding as the rest of the contract, and there's quite a bit more in there than just good faith bargaining language.
 

WaterRooster

Well-Known Member
Not sure what you mean by "just a LOA". The language in the LOA is as binding as the rest of the contract, and there's quite a bit more in there than just good faith bargaining language.
I read that and you read that, but if you look at APC... Jeesh.... The are still on the Strike bus
 

turbojet28

Well-Known Member
I agree that this deal is fair. Some of the things you read on “That Other Site” and on the company FB page are just ridiculous. Is this deal perfect? Of course not. Is it an overall significant improvement, yes. I just don’t understand what some others either expected or thought would happen.

Especially about new reassignment rules. I mean, how can you not expect some tightening of rules in this area after the last couple years? I’m just being honest, how is an airline supposed to operate if it literally can’t contact crew members? Guess what, when you work for an airline, sometimes crap happens, and it requires a reassignment. Try making it impossible for your company to get ahold of you in any other job on earth and let me know how that goes for you.
 
Last edited:

NickH

Dank Meme
I agree that this deal is fair. Some of the things you read on “That Other Site” and on the company FB page are just ridiculous. Is this deal perfect? Of course not. Is it an overall significant improvement, yes. I just don’t understand what some others either expected or thought would happen.
Significant improvement for sure. It's not fair, or even close, based on pay alone and it's bad for the industry as a whole.
 
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