Frontier

giddy

Well-Known Member
Yeah.... you'll be making 270/hr in the "bottom" while a Delta A320 guy makes 296/hr. You'll be within 92-93% of the top paid pilots in America. Don't get me wrong, I want more pay. But at some point you gotta realize what your carrier really is (again, I hate using that but it's true) and what the big 3 legacy carriers are. If you can't read between the lines, read the SLI decision for AS/VX and see what the arbitrators wrote in terms of VX vs AS.


There are and will always be 3 different tiers of pilot pay............

Tiers for pay, not airline history/status/service/etc


Tier one: Delta, American, United


Tier two: Alaska, Southwest, Hawaiian, jetBlue


Tier three: Spirit, Frontier, Allegiant, Sun Country


You can always look at other tiers and ALPA makes models in comparisons industry wide for same equipment. That's all fine and dandy. But if you think Tier 3 is gonna get Tier 1 pay, you're gonna have a disappointing career.

You seem to be missing his point that the NMB has nothing to do with this at this point. The only reason this offer was made is because the corner the company has found themselves painted into.
 

roundout

Bus Driver
You seem to be missing his point that the NMB has nothing to do with this at this point. The only reason this offer was made is because the corner the company has found themselves painted into.
Right, Spirit got punished for behaving badly. We're being punished for behaving well.

Anyway, you guys are right. This deal is going to pass, might as well get used to it.
 

Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
You seem to be missing his point that the NMB has nothing to do with this at this point. The only reason this offer was made is because the corner the company has found themselves painted into.
Alright, that's fair enough. So the gamble is vote it down now in hopes of a better offer x days down the road, when we've already had one of the longest and highest economic runs in the country? I suppose good luck with that bet. As someone who went through Age 65, the great recession, and my company's growth deferral of 2013, I've seen my career stall/standstill 3 different times in 11 years. Any contract that would have come through those times would have been deferred by the company and happily pushed off til later while the pilots continued to work with current book rates/rules. I understand Frontier pilots are the lowest paid Airbus pilots in the country today and have lived under this contract for far too long. I just don't think it's a bet I'd be comfortable with and seeing the highlights of that AIP, IMO, I'd vote yes.

Also keep in mind for AS, we didn't get to vote on ours. It was passed to us via arbitration. So it's not like we had a decision to make in terms of what others were doing in the industry.
 

Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
Time value of money.
I hate to use that phrase, but yes to a degree in context though. You have to look at the timeframe/era you're in. Delta guys had the economy and time on their side when they voted it down in 2015 and got their new/better agreement in 2016. 2019 is already here, are people that comfortable for 2020 to make the same kind of bet?
 

giddy

Well-Known Member
Time value of money.
Some valid points. However, accepting this proposal would also be admitting to Cherokee cruisers theory that money made by an airline doesn’t matter but rather it is the mission statement of “budget airline” that should be applied in how the company compensates its pilots. So yeah if you want to sit by while management uses the slash and burn strategy of reaping huge rewards at employees expense go for it see how negotiations go for the rest of your career. If we take this it will be permanently giving validity to the argument that Cherokee and the NMB seem to be making that it doesn't matter how much money our company is making it's a different business model and we should be subject to lower rates.
 

Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
Some valid points. However, accepting this proposal would also be admitting to Cherokee cruisers theory that money made by an airline doesn’t matter but rather it is the mission statement of “budget airline” that should be applied in how the company compensates its pilots. So yeah if you want to sit by while management uses the slash and burn strategy of reaping huge rewards at employees expense go for it see how negotiations go for the rest of your career. If we take this it will be permanently giving validity to the argument that Cherokee and the NMB seem to be making that it doesn't matter how much money our company is making it's a different business model and we should be subject to lower rates.
It already is that way. Spirit was one of the highest profitable airline (eg, margins) in the years leading up to their TA. They grew 3 fold that time and were industry darlings for the ULCC model. In the end, the money made by the airline doesn't put you into a new tier of airline. It's still a ULCC with a business model based on that with associated low costs, and unfortunately labor falls in that category too. And it's not just me, the NMB will make similar statements. As will a SLI arbitrator when he decides the formula for integration if a legacy airline buys Spirit or Frontier.
 

Box hauler

Well-Known Member
It already is that way. Spirit was one of the highest profitable airline (eg, margins) in the years leading up to their TA. They grew 3 fold that time and were industry darlings for the ULCC model. In the end, the money made by the airline doesn't put you into a new tier of airline. It's still a ULCC with a business model based on that with associated low costs, and unfortunately labor falls in that category too. And it's not just me, the NMB will make similar statements. As will a SLI arbitrator when he decides the formula for integration if a legacy airline buys Spirit or Frontier.
you make a good argument but I think you're wrong about the NMB thinking ULLC's aren't in the same labor category. Bottom line is that even know NK / F9 would still be a fair amount below every other major airline as far as pay goes, the percentage that we increased was very large and they aren't comfortable with supporting 100% pay raises in one shot because it may do harm to the company. Not saying I like it but I totally understand that you can't go from zero to hero in one shot, especially if you're expecting the government to support you.
 

giddy

Well-Known Member
It already is that way. Spirit was one of the highest profitable airline (eg, margins) in the years leading up to their TA. They grew 3 fold that time and were industry darlings for the ULCC model. In the end, the money made by the airline doesn't put you into a new tier of airline. It's still a ULCC with a business model based on that with associated low costs, and unfortunately labor falls in that category too. And it's not just me, the NMB will make similar statements. As will a SLI arbitrator when he decides the formula for integration if a legacy airline buys Spirit or Frontier.
As previously pointed out the NMB is finally as out of the equation as possible, not sure why you keep on misrepresenting the current situation like the NMB is controlling what’s going. The deal was offered because new hires are not showing up and recently people leaving has finally upticked. They miscalculated and held on to these ancient pay rates too long especially in the current landscape and are dependent on their pilots to vote to change them and keep their cash cow alive let alone to grow it. Spirit had the chance to vote theirs down but they were not in nearly as good of a position as Frontier currently is to make that calculation.

Are you aware of the arbitration in the pilots favor in regards to LOA 67?

Edit: added text
 
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Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
As previously pointed out the NMB is finally as out of the equation as possible, not sure why you keep on misrepresenting the current situation like the NMB is controlling what’s going. The deal was offered because new hires are not showing up and recently people leaving has finally upticked. They miscalculated and held on to these ancient pay rates too long especially in the current landscape and are dependent on their pilots to vote to change them and keep their cash cow alive let alone to grow it. Spirit had the chance to vote theirs down but they were not in nearly as good of a position as Frontier currently is to make that calculation.

Are you aware of the arbitration in the pilots favor in regards to LOA 67?

Edit: added text
Don't know what LOA 67 is/was. So they're throwing a bone because people aren't showing up and attrition is picking up. You can vote it in or turn it down and see what the future holds. The economy can only go up for so much and so long before it comes back down again. Then we'll be back to the "I'm jobless, but Frontier is hiring, let me try them...." cycle.
 

giddy

Well-Known Member
Got it. I was asking to gauge how informed on the situation you are since you keep bringing up the same point over and over which I thought you agreed was not completely relevant. I always find it strange when people from other companies insist on being loudly outspoken in the forums on another company’s negotiations. Maybe try asking a few questions from time to time. So 1) there are some pilot groups that should get paid less regardless of how much their company is making because of the business plan (majors have already tried copying the ULCC pricing model so why won’t they take the logical next step of copying the ULCC of exploiting labor) And 2) you’d be scared if you were in our shoes. Thanks it’s been noted.
 

Nark

Sheepdog
@giddy: to your first point. Thank God we don't live in Canada, or work for Air Canada/Rouge. They have done exactly that: a B pay scale for their Rouge cohorts. Same seniority list, different pay schemes. It's nuts.

@pianokeys might be able to offer more info.
 

pianokeys

MEL NO MUFFS
@giddy: to your first point. Thank God we don't live in Canada, or work for Air Canada/Rouge. They have done exactly that: a B pay scale for their Rouge cohorts. Same seniority list, different pay schemes. It's nuts.

@pianokeys might be able to offer more info.
Yup. B scale for Rouge flight crews, and that includes FAs (who originally had to pay for their own training and team building trip to Disney). I personally dont get the point of Rouge. It was designed to compete on a charter and schedule level? They have most of our 319s now, and do all the cool narrow body flying to the Caribbean, but also some domestic routes like YHZ-YYC. There is grumblings about replacing ACPA with ALPA now, especially with the work they did at WestJet.

WestJet pilots really went bananas this year with Swoop as management wanted to do the same thing. Hire pilots off the street and pay them less for the same type, and subsequently shrink the mainline fleet. But that backfired when the ALPA and the pilots voted no and threatened to strike. Now there is one seniority list, one pay scale, and any off the street captain hires got punted to the right seat.

But I mean, hey, why not take the highest time 320s in North America and milk the last few hours out of them by a crew whos playing second fiddle to mainline pay, but gets to fly to all the coolest places AND is apart of an airline thats growing rapidly?
 

adk

Steals Hotel Toilet Paper
It already is that way. Spirit was one of the highest profitable airline (eg, margins) in the years leading up to their TA. They grew 3 fold that time and were industry darlings for the ULCC model. In the end, the money made by the airline doesn't put you into a new tier of airline. It's still a ULCC with a business model based on that with associated low costs, and unfortunately labor falls in that category too. And it's not just me, the NMB will make similar statements. As will a SLI arbitrator when he decides the formula for integration if a legacy airline buys Spirit or Frontier.
In 2006 the top narrowbody captain rates at various airlines were:

Southwest 737 - $198 (TFP converted to hourly)
American 737 - $161
Frontier A320 - $157
Alaska 737 - $154
AirTran All - $153
Hawaiian 717 - $150
Delta 737NG - $149
Midwest All - $148
Continental Small Narrowbody - $144
JetBlue A320 - $139
US Airways (L-AWA) $138
Spirit A319 $138 (A321 $152)
Northwest A320 - $137
USA 3000 - $133
United A320 - $131
Sun Country 737 - $127
US Airways (L-US) A320 $125

Granted this was during a tumultuous time for the airline industry (2006 was the oldest I could find), but how do these rates fit into your "tier" system? Specifically, AirTran and Frontier being near the top?
 

upup89

Well-Known Member
how do these rates fit into your "tier" system? Specifically, AirTran and Frontier being near the top?
Tell that to the arbitrator that unilaterally decided his current pay rate. I don’t think he’s advocating that he likes the rules, just that he’s currently living by them.
 

roundout

Bus Driver
In 2006 the top narrowbody captain rates at various airlines were:

Southwest 737 - $198 (TFP converted to hourly)
American 737 - $161
Frontier A320 - $157
Alaska 737 - $154
AirTran All - $153
Hawaiian 717 - $150
Delta 737NG - $149
Midwest All - $148
Continental Small Narrowbody - $144
JetBlue A320 - $139
US Airways (L-AWA) $138
Spirit A319 $138 (A321 $152)
Northwest A320 - $137
USA 3000 - $133
United A320 - $131
Sun Country 737 - $127
US Airways (L-US) A320 $125

Granted this was during a tumultuous time for the airline industry (2006 was the oldest I could find), but how do these rates fit into your "tier" system? Specifically, AirTran and Frontier being near the top?
At that time Frontier wasn’t a ULCC and its management team saw the value of investing in its employees. Every company you listed there has gotten new contracts with huge gains since then, while Frontier remains operating under a 2008 bankruptcy contract.
 

giddy

Well-Known Member
Tell that to the arbitrator that unilaterally decided his current pay rate. I don’t think he’s advocating that he likes the rules, just that he’s currently living by them.
Point taken, however, he is walking a fine line of being forced to live under those rules (that he thinks are unjust?) and using his rhetoric to try to persuade others, who unlike him have a small chance of fighting against those rules, to submit to them. Stockholm syndrome?
 

Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
In 2006 the top narrowbody captain rates at various airlines were:

Southwest 737 - $198 (TFP converted to hourly)
American 737 - $161
Frontier A320 - $157
Alaska 737 - $154
AirTran All - $153
Hawaiian 717 - $150
Delta 737NG - $149
Midwest All - $148
Continental Small Narrowbody - $144
JetBlue A320 - $139
US Airways (L-AWA) $138
Spirit A319 $138 (A321 $152)
Northwest A320 - $137
USA 3000 - $133
United A320 - $131
Sun Country 737 - $127
US Airways (L-US) A320 $125

Granted this was during a tumultuous time for the airline industry (2006 was the oldest I could find), but how do these rates fit into your "tier" system? Specifically, AirTran and Frontier being near the top?
Seriously? You answered your own question. Because post 9/11 was a huge anomaly in the legacy/major airlines. They were all almost all in bankruptcy with wage cuts. It directly led to a huge boom in the regional industry and the LCC industry. Yes Spirit was around before 9/11 but nothing like it is today. jetBlue started 2000 and really expanded afterwards. VX wasn't around. Frontier was but much smaller. Sun Country and Allegiant were small jokes back then.

The problem was too many airlines, over capacity, too little market held by any one airline. Half of the airlines in that list are gone either outright or through mergers. The new tiers going forward are Delta/American/United, then Southwest/Alaska/Hawaiian/jetBlue, and then Spirit/Frontier/Allegiant/Sun Country. Historically with the exception of 9/11 and bankruptcies and post 2008 recession and bankruptcies, the legacy carriers have always paid more.
 

Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
Tell that to the arbitrator that unilaterally decided his current pay rate. I don’t think he’s advocating that he likes the rules, just that he’s currently living by them.
That arbitration was agreed to by the pilots.

Point taken, however, he is walking a fine line of being forced to live under those rules (that he thinks are unjust?) and using his rhetoric to try to persuade others, who unlike him have a small chance of fighting against those rules, to submit to them. Stockholm syndrome?
Nope. I think what we got is exactly what we had coming being a ~160+70ish legacy airline. I'm realistic in that sense. You can do with your AIP/TA what you want, vote no if you want, but I'm not the one being unrealistic.

Pilots are emotional and look on past precedence to decide their future. It's why many VXers were absolutely convinced in the SLI that longevity wouldn't be weighted at more than 15% or maybe 30% at most because historically speaking that had never been done in any previous SLI arbitration award. When pilots see a pattern, a well established rule/decision, they formulate in their own mind what their expectation is going forward. And when the harsh reality hits them in the face, they're all shocked. You do you; I'm just telling you won't get Delta/AA/United rates/work rules.
 

giddy

Well-Known Member
Tell that to the arbitrator that unilaterally decided his current pay rate. I don’t think he’s advocating that he likes the rules, just that he’s currently living by them.
That arbitration was agreed to by the pilots.



Nope. I think what we got is exactly what we had coming being a ~160+70ish legacy airline. I'm realistic in that sense. You can do with your AIP/TA what you want, vote no if you want, but I'm not the one being unrealistic.

Pilots are emotional and look on past precedence to decide their future. It's why many VXers were absolutely convinced in the SLI that longevity wouldn't be weighted at more than 15% or maybe 30% at most because historically speaking that had never been done in any previous SLI arbitration award. When pilots see a pattern, a well established rule/decision, they formulate in their own mind what their expectation is going forward. And when the harsh reality hits them in the face, they're all shocked. You do you; I'm just telling you won't get Delta/AA/United rates/work rules.
There you go upup I didn’t want to put words into his mouth. Pretty disgraceful! I pray Frontier has enough people with more self respect (a shred would be all that it would take), not to mention respect for others, than this know it all to send this garbage back.

Cherokee the rest of your statement is a contradiction you have been arguing that we have to follow the ordained patterns and decisions by the NMB and arbitrators and then you give us an example of how they were broken, do you not see that it’s like you wrote a response for me?

As far as legacy rates I’ve never said what I’m expecting just what I won’t accept.
 
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