Frontier

slough

Well-Known Member
If this passes Frontier looks like it could be a great opportunity with the planned growth. Anything I'm missing?
 

roundout

Bus Driver
not disagreeing but my comment said that’s how the union will “sell” it
FTFY

125% over 82 is nice but I think most people who credit as much as possible every month do it because our current pay rates are so low. I'm sure some people will pick up as much as they always have but I doubt all of them do.
 

Box hauler

Well-Known Member
there’s some good and some bad, the problem is you have so many pissed off pilots that automatically vote NO since anything they didn’t get or ask for is seen as a concession (i.e. PBS)
I hear ya but remember that Spirit was really pissed off too and our deal passed by 70%. I know it's just a conspiracy theory but there seems to be a lot of things between Spirit and F9 that point towards a merger. F9 opens LAS base, Spirit opens MCO base, Spirit flight attendants receive an email about incorporating teal into their uniforms, AIP would make pay and retirement almost identical to Spirit DOS +1 literally to the day, plus PBS, heck even F9's long stay hotel language of 18 hours or
more in the AIP is exactly what Spirit switched to in our new agreement. :stir:
 

amichael

Well-Known Member
Re pay scales in this AIP:

The FO scale is 1% better than Spirit.
The CA scale is 1% worse than Spirit.
This is not factoring in the 10% override that Spirit gets for 321 flying.

The AIP reflects an average of 8% worse than the original 2016 ask and 18% worse than the updated 2018 ask for FOs. For CAs, the AIP reflects an average of 5% worse than the original 2016 ask and 15% worse than the the updated 2018 ask.

As far as the discussion about the NMB: they have completely abdicated their duty of mediating fair negotiations. If market forces pressure the company for a deal, there is nothing the NMB can realistically do about the pilot group holding out for bigger numbers. The NMB is irrelevant.
 

Eagle421flyer

Well-Known Member
I’m guessing it will pass just like it did here at Spirit. Don’t get me wrong kudos to you guys if you can shoot it down but I’m betting based off of how our vote went this will pass.


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elmetal

Ain't nobody got time for that
Re pay scales in this AIP:

The FO scale is 1% better than Spirit.
The CA scale is 1% worse than Spirit.
This is not factoring in the 10% override that Spirit gets for 321 flying.

The AIP reflects an average of 8% worse than the original 2016 ask and 18% worse than the updated 2018 ask for FOs. For CAs, the AIP reflects an average of 5% worse than the original 2016 ask and 15% worse than the the updated 2018 ask.

As far as the discussion about the NMB: they have completely abdicated their duty of mediating fair negotiations. If market forces pressure the company for a deal, there is nothing the NMB can realistically do about the pilot group holding out for bigger numbers. The NMB is irrelevant.
The 321 override is fleetwide not just based off who flies the 321, it amounts to about 2.5% higher pay for everyone on property, which makes the frontier deal below us (albeit minutely, but still below)
 

adk

Steals Hotel Toilet Paper
As far as the discussion about the NMB: they have completely abdicated their duty of mediating fair negotiations. If market forces pressure the company for a deal, there is nothing the NMB can realistically do about the pilot group holding out for bigger numbers. The NMB is irrelevant.

I’m not saying you should or shouldn’t be mad, but you need to understand that the NMB’s primary objective is to avoid interruptions to commerce. The word fair does not appear:


Pursuant to the Railway Labor Act, NMB programs provide dispute-resolution processes to effectively meet its statutory objectives: avoiding interruption to commerce or to the operation of any carrier; forbidding any limitation upon freedom of association among employees; providing for the prompt and orderly settlement of all disputes concerning rates of pay, rules, or working conditions; and providing for the prompt and orderly settlement of all disputes growing out of grievances related to the implementation and management of collective bargaining agreements.
 

Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
FTFY

125% over 82 is nice but I think most people who credit as much as possible every month do it because our current pay rates are so low. I'm sure some people will pick up as much as they always have but I doubt all of them do.
I heard this at VX, once the new AS payrates kick in I can work a lot less and make the same. Reality is they work the same as they did, and some even more. Human mindset is not work less to make the same, it's work the same to make even more money, or work even more to get huge amounts of $$$$$.
 

roundout

Bus Driver
This may hurt feelings, but this contract seems to be good for what Frontier is. And I said the same for Spirit, jetBlue, Alaska.
The offer is basically Spirit’s contract. Spirit was jammed up by a TRO amidst a fake illegal work action and had little leverage. Since Spirit ratified their deal, JetBlue and Alaska have secured deals with better pay and benefits. Where 6 months ago this might have been an acceptable offer, in light of the industry average going up with JetBlue and Alaska, to me, it no longer is.

I am trying to rationalize voting yes on this thing but I’m just not coming up with much. I mean other than that I could conceivably go from 80/hr to 200/hr in a few months....Perhaps it’s an emotional response, but it’s where I am.
 

Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
The offer is basically Spirit’s contract. Spirit was jammed up by a TRO amidst a fake illegal work action and had little leverage. Since Spirit ratified their deal, JetBlue and Alaska have secured deals with better pay and benefits. Where 6 months ago this might have been an acceptable offer, in light of the industry average going up with JetBlue and Alaska, to me, it no longer is.

I am trying to rationalize voting yes on this thing but I’m just not coming up with much. I mean other than that I could conceivably go from 80/hr to 200/hr in a few months....Perhaps it’s an emotional response, but it’s where I am.

With an offer this big, no NMB official would release Frontier for self help. It's in the "good enough" category. You can risk voting it no and seeing what happens in the future. Not to toss fear grenades, but this isn't 2015 or '16, '17. I do think we're pretty much at the near top before things start coming down like they always do. How far down they go down, how long, etc, is anyone's guess. Personally for Frontier being a ULCC, with its size and history, I think I would pass this and lock it in.
 

roundout

Bus Driver
With an offer this big, no NMB official would release Frontier for self help. It's in the "good enough" category. You can risk voting it no and seeing what happens in the future. Not to toss fear grenades, but this isn't 2015 or '16, '17. I do think we're pretty much at the near top before things start coming down like they always do. How far down they go down, how long, etc, is anyone's guess. Personally for Frontier being a ULCC, with its size and history, I think I would pass this and lock it in.
Nothing you said do I disagree with, but being excited about locking in a contract which guarantees you'll be amongst the bottom 3 in pay for 5 years after already being the lowest for the last 7 years is hard to swallow.

BTW, the NMB would never release is anyway.

The APC "no" people seem to think that if this gets sunk that indigo will be right back with more money because they can't hire. That could be, personally i believe the NC would get recalled and we wouldn't see jack for 6-12 months, in which time anything could happen. That's a big bet.
 

Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
Nothing you said do I disagree with, but being excited about locking in a contract which guarantees you'll be amongst the bottom 3 in pay for 5 years after already being the lowest for the last 7 years is hard to swallow.

BTW, the NMB would never release is anyway.

The APC "no" people seem to think that if this gets sunk that indigo will be right back with more money because they can't hire. That could be, personally i believe the NC would get recalled and we wouldn't see jack for 6-12 months, in which time anything could happen. That's a big bet.

Yeah.... you'll be making 270/hr in the "bottom" while a Delta A320 guy makes 296/hr. You'll be within 92-93% of the top paid pilots in America. Don't get me wrong, I want more pay. But at some point you gotta realize what your carrier really is (again, I hate using that but it's true) and what the big 3 legacy carriers are. If you can't read between the lines, read the SLI decision for AS/VX and see what the arbitrators wrote in terms of VX vs AS.


There are and will always be 3 different tiers of pilot pay............

Tiers for pay, not airline history/status/service/etc


Tier one: Delta, American, United


Tier two: Alaska, Southwest, Hawaiian, jetBlue


Tier three: Spirit, Frontier, Allegiant, Sun Country


You can always look at other tiers and ALPA makes models in comparisons industry wide for same equipment. That's all fine and dandy. But if you think Tier 3 is gonna get Tier 1 pay, you're gonna have a disappointing career.
 

roundout

Bus Driver
Yeah.... you'll be making 270/hr in the "bottom" while a Delta A320 guy makes 296/hr. You'll be within 92-93% of the top paid pilots in America. Don't get me wrong, I want more pay. But at some point you gotta realize what your carrier really is (again, I hate using that but it's true) and what the big 3 legacy carriers are. If you can't read between the lines, read the SLI decision for AS/VX and see what the arbitrators wrote in terms of VX vs AS.


There are and will always be 3 different tiers of pilot pay............

Tiers for pay, not airline history/status/service/etc


Tier one: Delta, American, United


Tier two: Alaska, Southwest, Hawaiian, jetBlue


Tier three: Spirit, Frontier, Allegiant, Sun Country


You can always look at other tiers and ALPA makes models in comparisons industry wide for same equipment. That's all fine and dandy. But if you think Tier 3 is gonna get Tier 1 pay, you're gonna have a disappointing career.

Look, I get it. I don’t expect Delta pay. I think most people here were thinking “JBminus” or “Spirit plus” in light of the way Spirit arrived at their deal. Like I said, in my personal position, I can make headway for the first time in my career, which is exciting. It’s better than where we are now but not where we hoped to be, and we will be light years behind by the time this deal has expired.
 

Eagle421flyer

Well-Known Member
You guys are wasting your time batting this around. If your MEC recommends a yes vote, it’ll pass.

Greed.


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Absolutely correct. It’s the same way we (spirit) got our deal they threw enough money out so the majority of folks voted yes.


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